but I just don't get this pick. I know he's got the frame to be a great DE and a non-stop motor and great work ethic, but I'm still scared shitless by the lack of experience. I would much rather have had Williams, Iupati, Weatherspoon, or Wilson...
Oh well, I'm not a professional, just a fan. What do I know?
he had a rough patch - he's still young and extremely talented. I thought the Giants needed DT help badly. Hopefully it's addressed in the upcoming rounds.
"This is the best pick of the first round. The Giants picked a star pass rusher. He will be a force. What a great pick. I love this pick more than any other. He will be a 12-15 sack player in a year."
My sentiments exactly, I really hate these types of gambles, especially so early in the 1st round and especially when they are still so many quality players on the board.
I really hope this kid pans out, but I can't shake the flashbacks to Vernon Gholston, fuck.
The Giants have 3 DEs already. There was absolutely no need to pick this player at all. He will be the #4 DE on the team while we could've taken a starting DT, LB or OL.
This pick is going to set the Giants back for years. You cannot blow a first round pick like this!
as Osi doesn't go Shockey on us, the reality is that in 2010, JPP will essentially take Dave Tollefson's roster spot and spend the year learning the system, getting stronger in the weight room and learning from the vets. The DE rotation will remain Tuck, Kiwi, and Osi. Come 2011, the Giants will end up moving on from one of Osi or Kiwi and the expectation is that they will basically have a top 10 talented DE in JPP ready to jump into the mix. This was a pick for the future to maintain the pass rush and soften the blow of losing Kiwi or Osi.
As the ESPN guys said, he has the kind of body that can hold a lot of meat. 280+, easy. Plus the long arms.
I think there's a good chance Osi's gone before the close of business tomorrow. The question is, of course, what anyone is willing to bid for him: does he recover fully from the knee and return to form? The Giants are betting, it seems, that the answer is no, but then how much is he worth in trade?
we do not need a project, especially at DE! We need NFL ready players at linebacker, DT, o-lineman, RB and you take another DE! Pull your head out of your ass jerry
we do not need a project, especially at DE! We need NFL ready players at linebacker, DT, o-lineman, RB and you take another DE! Pull your head out of your ass jerry
for Jerry Reese. Despite the meeting of need vs. value, Reese has always said that he will take the best player on his board. This simply proved him to be an honest man. This actually confirms what most of have thought about him.
One more thing: A month ago Gil Brandt called this pick. He is still the best when it comes to the draft. That is also confirmed once again. Let's hope he's right about Pierre-Paul's talent.
hard not to be excited about the athleticism but he's raw. We'll see.
And I still don't think they trade Osi this year. JPP may need some time to develop so I'm not sure the Giants are looking to throw him into a more vital role by trading Osi. Keep all four this year, then decide between Kiwi and Osi next offseason and put that guy with JPP and Tuck.
There are so many better options and more needs. I can't stand the osi trade talk...he had a bad year after knee surgery and got upset when he was getting sat.
I can't even imagine trying to replace Osi or Kiwi with this guy. I hope I am wrong but this guy had one year with any competition.
I think this Morgan guy may be better and this JPP has looks like fucking Tarzan written all over him. I sure hope he is a tough guy. We don't need body builders.
interest in JPP. He was also the only one on Sirius NFL who liked the pick. Gil does not expect him to make a big contribution next year but for the long term he thinks that he'll be a freak. Too much raw athleticism to pass up. Fifty schools offered him a scholarship, including Nebraska, when he transferred from community college to Tennessee.
Boom or bust player is a big gamble for Reese and Coughlin in a year where a poor performance could cost them their jobs.
but we have to hope that Reese and Coughlin know what they are doing. And with this pick they are following their formula, namely that you cannot have too many pass rushers. That is how they won the SB, by getting after Brady like nobody else had that year. And they know that Osi is gone after this year at the latest. This pick is to prepare for when that happens. But given how raw JPP is, and how little we can apparently get for Osi, I don't expect Osi to be traded. Hopefully we can still get a good DT like Joseph, Thomas, or Troup in rounds two or three.
...BPA, every time and then when the Giants pick someone not according to need, people scream bloody murder. Can you all make up your mind? If you think the pick sucks, fine, but don't complain that he wasn't a need when most of you yell for BPA before the draft.
DE is not a need when you have Osi, Tuck and Kiwi. You cannot worry about what will happen in 2011 - you play for 2010. Stock our team for 2010 and then worry about the off-season afterward. You never know what will happen, Kiwi can resign, Osi can regain his form.
And, if we need a DE in 2011, we can draft one then.
For now, we still have no starting MLB, some aging OL players and question marks at DT.
this kid could be the second coming of LT, get a grip guys Â
STRENGTHS
Jason has remarkable athletic talent and size to be an excellent pass rusher at the next level for the team that drafts him. He is very quick off the line of scrimmage and seems to have extra gears that he can shift into when he is rushing the passer or tracking down a play from behind. He is quick, fast and has those long legs and long arms that give him an excellent advantage against any size offensive lineman. Jason's strength is his quickness and speed off the line. Add to that his size and you have an intimidation factor that opponents will have to deal with emotionally before they even step onto the field. He shows very good change of direction ability for a player with such long legs and has superior lateral agility to stretch running plays out to the sideline and not give ground. He is the type of player that, after he works out, is going to make defensive coordinators drool all over themselves as they sleep and dream of all the ways they can use this kid to get to the QB on third and long.
NEEDS TO IMPROVE
Because of his long legs and long arms, he will always struggle at the point of attack; however, you are not drafting Jason to stop the run. You are drafting Jason to rush the passer. His pass rushing skills are all based on his ability to get off the line quicker than his opponent. That will not do (all the time) at the next level. Jason has a long way to go to learn better pass rushing techniques to free himself up at the next level and become a consistent intimidating factor. A lot of his sacks and pressures (early in the season) came from inside stunts and not from freeing himself up and rushing from the outside until later in the season. This improvement shows me that Jason is coachable and improved during the season -- but he still has a long ways to go.
BOTTOM LINE
Jason could be a bigger version of Dwight Freeney (DE Colts). If he has the work ethic that Dwight has, the sky is the limit to his ability to become one of the best pass rushing defensive ends in the game. It's all up to him. Jason looks to me to have the athleticism to play as a OLB in a 3-4. I suspect at the combine, they will put him through those athletic drills to confirm my suspicions. If I'm correct, this kid will be able to play in any style of defense and I would think that would push him into the top ten on many teams' boards. He will get better against the run and at the point of attack with experience, but like I said, you are not drafting Jason to stop the run. There will be a lot of teams that will list this kid as a top ten talent even if he is not able to shine in LB drills. The truth is it will be very hard for me to disagree with that. He looks on film to be a good teammate and plays hard on every down; however, as we all know, sometimes that does not tell the whole story. Right now I'm watching on film the best pass rushing defensive end in this draft. The kid from Florida (Carlos Dunlap) is a more complete defensive end, but this kid is the fastest and quickest pure pass rushing 4-3 defensive end. I call him Jason (The Gazelle) Pierre-Paul because, on the field, he's as smooth and as fast and quick as a gazelle.
Im sorry, but this was a terrible pick. WE have osi, tuck, sintim, kiwi, canty, benard, cofield, alford...to me that was okay for now. should have either traded down or taken a LB...our LBs are shaky. Boley( who is always hurt) wilkinson, kehl, goff(who i like), blackburn. I mean to me, its just not that strong. But what gets me even more mad about this pick is i like morgan better. ACC player of the year IMO, he sees better offenses. But its the pick and i guess we gotta live with it, but i really think its a poor pick and i am really not excited about it
infere that JPP is better than Morgan. Morgan the more complete DE now, but not the pass rusher that JPP is. IDK. The talk of Morgan was tepid.
JPP at 270 and will be 280 after one good meal.
1. Several arguments hinge on the fact that people have watched his games. Congratulations; Reese, Coughlin, Ross, etc. have been to workouts, had personal interviews, and broke down his game tape.
2. You simply don't draft based on BPA or need; your draft on a combination of both, based on who is available.
3. We have quality depth at DE; he can provide depth and learn (get less raw).
Guys if any team in the league knows pass rushers it is the Giants Â
To many D ends already! Where is this guy gonna play? We need a big DT and a kick ass MLB. Why another D End? If they trade OSi and play a rookie, they lose experiance. I think this guy will get eaten alive by the Big OT's in the league. Basically, 1 year of full playing experiance for a small college. Not a good pick!
and I think I wrote a response to a post from Bold Ruler earlier in the day about the 5th round report that Dottino gave and I said that I thought it actually made sense to put that out there before picking a DE, such as JPP.
The Giants have been approached by teams. I know this has been the case for a while. That report was a PR masterpiece by Hanlon and company. Because it had a two fold effect.
1) It made it clear to teams that the Giants are listening to offers, but don't low ball them because it won't work, they aren't despirate to move him. If you want Osi, you need to come up with a 2nd rounder or some comperable value
2) If they can't get value, the Giants have covered themselves if Osi does cause a problem because the fans know that the Giants won't give Osi away, he's under contract, and he needs to shut up and play. So any problems from Osi will be spun as his problem, not the Giants.
The Giants paved the way for this pick with that leak to Dottino this afternoon.
If the guy's a boom, great. But I don't like reading stuff like "Lacks instincts, football intelligence, and production doesn't match ability." The Giants seem to know DEs, though, so let's hope for the best.
I'm more upset that Earl Thomas went at 14. But the Giants may still have taken Penis-Pal.
Anyone who is a freak athlete and has a great motor will be fine as long as they have the one critical skill you need for the position.
JPP has the best first step found in a decade (as per many scouts)
A first step is the one critical differentiator in a pass rusher. It cannot be taught. It sets up all other moves and all other developments.
His floor is therefore fine (athlete, motor, critical skill) and his ceiling is great.
We waited five years for Eli. Three years for Tiki. Two years for Manningham. Two years for Jacobs. Three years for Corey Webster. Two years for Tuck. Years for Toomer. Two years for Osi. Years for Carson. Years for Diehl. Years for Seubert. We were willing to wait two years for KP
Guess what? It may well take two years to be a multiple playoff winning team again
We lose Osi or Kiwi next year. Tuck is oft hurt. And the position is oft injured.
Finally, if the guy stayed in school he would be a 1-5 pick next year. Since when do the Giants get a shot at a top 5 pick?
That there were teams willing to trade up. If no one wanted to trade up then outside of picking the player you, as a fan liked the Giants did everything they could.
This is a bleh pick for me, but Im excited, because he does look very impressive athletically.
does an 8 and 8 team have the luxury to effectively red-shirt their first round pick? this may be a good pick for JPP's upside...or because it protects us if kiwi walks or Osi goes shockey on us...but how does it make us better THIS year? how many snaps a game will he see as the 4th end? even in passing situations, you have to think the first team on 3rd down is kiwi, tuck, canty and Osi.
Weatherspoon. I cringe when I hear "raw". What motherfucking is "raw"? I have grave doubts about this first rround draft pick and this gymnast. I have not felt this way about our first round pick since Ron Dayne.
I love how it seems like 90% of the people say... Â
...BPA, every time and then when the Giants pick someone not according to need, people scream bloody murder. Can you all make up your mind? If you think the pick sucks, fine, but don't complain that he wasn't a need when most of you yell for BPA before the draft.
The Giants are restocking the cupboard at arguably the second most important position. This is a guy who is essentially the prototype physically, plays hard and who put up solid numbers in his first year of big time ball.
We got completely run over last year in the running game.. Â
"Lacks instincts, football intelligence, and production doesn't match ability."
That's the same shit we read about Gholston to the T.
This is what all the JPP skeptics are worried about. I have a real problem with guys from smaller schools who fail to light it up in all the statistical categories, but are all of the sudden supposed to do it in the NFL because of their athleticism.
derrick Morgan was better pick. He is a superior run defender. Paul as a no.1 pick cannot start from the get go. He is not going to help this team except in spot situations and then only if he finds his rhythym in the defense
This was a bad pick by Reese and Co. They must have tunnel vision
This is awesome! This is a great athlete with the potential to one day make an OT piss in his pants. He is like a combination of the three great DE's we have. Each of which has questions surrounding their health and/or future. We meant it when we defended this philosophy after the selection of Kiwanuka. We put a premium on pass rushers. We realize the need to take them early and often. This guy is athletically a top five kind of athlete that we got at 15 because of his level of competition. I remember when the Cards took DT-Eric Swann. He was great for a few years. I remember George Young selecting guys like LT, Banks, Reasons, and Pepper Johnson when the Giants put their premium on LBs. They collected LBs. All of them in the 6-4 245lb. range. After every pick people cried that we just didn't need any more friggin LBs. Those people eventually shut up too.....
a friend of mine coached him in high school. he told me JPP is as dumb as a box of rocks. barely could pass high school and couldnt understand plays. he said he is the most athletic person he has ever seen on a football field.
go back to the archives, I think all the same stuff was said about Kiwi when the Giants made that pick. The Giants salary structure is not going to support 3 DEs in the second/most lucrative parts of their contracts. After this season, you've got Tuck and Osi already there (and Osi wanting more money) and Kiwi will then be in that place needing his new deal after his rookie deal expired. What the Giants have done here, come 2011 is be able to maintain the plan of having 3 talented pass rushing DEs with 2 in their prime contracts and one on their rookie deal. The whole defense is predicated on rushing the passer off the edges. The Giants figure they are getting a top 10 talent right now (Ross said it himself) and he can slot right into the rotation next year. This is how you build a team for now and the future.
And the Giants again, with the "we're not trading Osi" has put all issues back on him, if any arise.
the other side of that. This kid's floor is as low as his ceiling is high. I don't like the pick, but I certainly can't deny the kid has talent. I just would've preferred what I viewed as a safer pick.
He could turn into the best pass rusher in the league but could be a major bust - gotta swing for the fences when you have that potential. He's raw so having Osi, Kiwi and Tuck take the pressure off him a bit. A few years in an NFL weight room is going to really turn him into a superfreak
There are only 2 DEs on the field at a time. So unless he's going to supplant Osi, Kiwi, or Tuck - he won't be making a huge impact while they're on the team. And all 3 of those men are young, very good players. It would be stupid to trade any one of them unless the compensation is a no brainer, which it wouldn't be for any other than Tuck (who isn't going anywhere).
It's not about JPP the player. It's about the position he plays and the 3 very good DE players already on the Giants. That's what makes it a questionable pick.
what Reese is thinking here. All early round Giants draft picks under Coughlin are required to participate in the rip your hamstring off the bone cutting edge training camp program. So when this guy misses most of his rookie season who cares? He's too raw to play anyway. The Giants can room him with Barden in training camp and Barden can teach him how to look good while being inactive for almost an entire football season.
JPP doesn't have much of a track record as far as production goes. He only started seven games at South Florida. Ross, KP, Nicks - they had an extensive body of work you could look at, big production at big schools. Not so with JPP.
Still, I had the Giants drafting him in my last mock (4-17), and I wrote this about him:
Quote:
Sure, he's raw and inexperienced, but his upside is off the freaking charts. He's an athletic freak whose first step is already ridiculously quick. You want to get to the quarterback? This kid can do it. Think of what he'll be like with a year of NFL strength and conditioning under his belt. When you consider that the Giants most likely won't be able to keep both Osi and Kiwi after the 2010 season, adding JPP to the roster makes a lot of sense.
He can have the ability to jump over the moon but if he gets a nick and heads for the bench, he won't be doing us any good. Thoroughbreds can be very sensitive.
You're off the reese bandwagon just because a pick that hasn't had a chance to pan out? LOL. I'll remember the names on this thread that shot their wad wad prematurely on this pick.
because he will be brought along slowly like Mario Manningham and people will know this ahead of time but will still call him a bust after this season.
I would have taken Morgan because he is the "safer" pick. But Pierre-Paul is worthy of the selection. There was a lot of talent there at 15. Ross said he was their 6th rated player.
but it is a pick that isn't likely to have a major impact on how the 2010 season unfolds ... Giants need some toughness against the run ... I don't see a 2nd round LB starting this year so Goff looks like he'll start at MLB ... to me, that means the Giants hopes in 2010 now rest upon KP's health - a fearsome duo at safety is now going to be critical imo
I've been warming all day. I thought with the signing of Rolle, and positive news on Phillips, that there were only 2 clear needs -- A GREAT LOT prospect (anything less than great wouldnt be an improvement on Beatty) and pass rush. Davis from Rutgers was the last great LOT prospect.
Look, I dont know JPP from OPP. Im not a scout. But the Giants know how to pick pass rushers. Everyone says you need to be able to protect your QB and hit their QB to win. We won a super bowl on that theory. But our pass rush failed big time last year. We took a shot on greatness here. Decent chance he's at least going to be a guy in a Tuck type role from the SB run. Some chance that he is the next great pass rushing DE. We now have a potential 4 Aces package again, from Tuck, Osi, Kiwi, JPP, Sintim and some others.
I did not like it at first, but the kid has tremendous ability. He just needs to be coached up. JR put his reputation on the line with this pick. If he's right, he's headed to the HOF. If he's not, he could lose his job. And he knows that! That's what makes it a great pick. He is putting it on the line. When JPP sacks McNabb three times, scoops up a fumble and returns it for a TD, I'll be counting the "In Jerry WE Trust!" gurus...
We really didn't need any DTs, last year was an aberration, all the DTs were badly injured. The Brass knows what they have in Canty, Bernard, Alford. They know they will bounce-back from the injuries. Tuck was also useless with the torn Labrum, foot and knee.
Reese and company took a shot at a great prospect with great measurables. This will be a red-shirt year, its about the future.
JPP will hit the weight room; he will learn from some of the best in the business. In 2011 forward he could be awesome.
Good DTs can be had in round 2, 3 in this draft. Same for LBs.
i hate this pick unless there is a verbal agreement of a trade of one our DE's later in the draft. I would have preferred Dan Williams, Bulaga, or Iupati. Its the Kiwi pick all over again when it should have been D'qwell Jackson.
but this guy looked good in the clips they had on ESPN. and in the real time did not look like a steroid monster either, just naturally big.
my only recent track record is a couple of years ago the eagles picked a DE, looked bulked up to me, I said draft day was a workout warrior and thats how it turned out.
in contrast to superfical impression I got of this player, Jean Pierre Paul. --practically the name of a pope FWIW btw
Can I tell you how many shitty players BBIers said were going to be great?
And how many very good players BBIers said were going to be shitty?
Me included. The truth is - we don't know.
That's why I don't understand how people can get too excited or too happy with this. It's fun. Take it for what it is, but how can you tell if a player is going to be great or suck?
JPP will lead the league in sacks one year. Also, why does everyone all of a sudden think Osi is going to be great? Remember he was AWFUL last year and got benched. Tuck was banged up all year and has been hurt seemingly his whole career. And Kiwanuka has been OK but a disappointment. How is taking an awesome pass rusher a bad pick there?
however,he is a classic boom or bust player.. I'll give Jerry the benefit of the doubt but 7 games at USF as a rotating starter certainly leaves much room for doubt.
be fair to JPP.... MOST of the time with these freak athletes the reason they don;t make it is lack of motor or heart, this kid according almost everyone has a GREAT motor.
To rate Jason Pierre-Paul over Morgan, the ACC Defensive Player of the Year, is lunacy in my opinion. Pierre-Paul has seven career starts at the D-I level. Those starts were not consecutive, but spread out over 11 games, and he wasn't a dominating presence. He's wonderfully athletic, possessing the quick burst off the snap and long arms that every team operating out of the 4-3 alignment is looking for. He has very little understanding of gap alignment, however, and offers next to nothing in terms of run defense. The team that selects Pierre-Paul with a top 20 selection can expect similar results from his rookie season that Vernon Gholston in 2009 (Jets) and Aaron Maybin (Bills) and Robert Ayers (Broncos) last year - three other severely overrated (by some) - produced. - Rob Rang, The Sports Xchange, NFLDraftScout.com
fuck al davis! how do you not take Bulaga when hes there? I heard Pierre Paul is one of the hardest hitting players in history the upside is huge he better be starting day 1 with pick 15. That means we use our 15th pick which is rare that we own to get rid of 2 good players in Osi and Kiwi.
I find it hard to see how this kid will hold up against the run Â
Long, tall and fast. I'd rather have had a DT or Iupati. I didn't like Weatherspoon, we already have Boley. And Weatherspoon was drafted to play Boley's position at ATL.
Basically it's a pick intended to learn from our DE trio this year in order to be a stud going forward.
But at 15 I hate it.
My problem with this pick is that for JPP to be great Â
and a consistent impact player, it means either Osi or Kiwi is no longer a Giant. And why get rid of either one of them? They're both young and very talented and had off-years like the entire D outside of a few.
who still hasn't proved he's worth that pick IMO. Seems to me the Giants might as well hand over the keys of the city to the Jets this year. But look out in 2011, right guys?
the distinct opposite of your opinion of him. His height is the only downside. 239 in college, and with an NFL preseason program, he'll probably add another 5 pounds. He said he tried playing '08 at 251 and felt slow.
(bbi)since 1998. If there are opinions I respect and listen to, it's guys like Kwall, Go terps, WA/P , Jon C, etc. They know their stuff, so all you kids pissing your pants over this pick, read what they write. Intellectualize it. Listen to what they're saying.
It never fails to amaze me. The knee-jerk reactions here on BBi are astounding.
I saw him waive a the RB on the outside a couple of times. He can tackle the runner when the action is in the middle of the field, but he has trouble when the run kicks outside.
His production doesn't match his ability? That's crap. That's somebody looking at 6.5 sacks and saying it isn't enough for a pass rusher. He was very productive. A lot of QB pressure and a lot of trouble for opposing OTs.
This pick is about what he brings to the NFL. Not some sacks in college. He's extremely explosive and hard working. Long arms with the great first step. Built to play 4-3 DE and get to the QB.
If he went back to college he would have had a 12 sack season and possibly the #1 overall pick next year.
We just got a player who may be the best player in this draft. Without question, he would have been one of the best next year. We get him now. We get an extra year with him. At 15, he'll be locked up for 5 yrs at $18-$19 million. That's a bargain.
He'll come in and produce as a rookie. It may be only as a situational pass rusher but he'll come in and give some linemen fits with his speed and explosion. He'll get to the QB and that is still the best way to defend the pass. He'll make the entire defense better.
...why this was good. That year (and since) we needed a LB in the worst way. And in Kiwi we drafted a DE who will be gone in a cloud of dust after his rookie contract ends. Oh, and he barely started, and lets face it, he wasn't as big an impact as you want in a 1st rounder. We should have taken Ryans, Jackson or Howard that year.
IMO all that makes Kiwi a bad pick in hindsight and foresight.
that we passed on a terrific Weakside Linebacker prospect in Sean Weatherspoon because we have Michael fucking Boley. There's a reason why the Falcons let Boley go.
who played one year of football. They basically bought a Power Ball ticket, hoping to win it big.
Lindy's Draft Guide report snippet:
Quote:
Strength: Lacks functional strength to hold up against NFL tackles, whether attempting to bull rush or stacking his man to play the run. Loses his balance when attempting to disengage on stretch plays. Easily knocked off his feet running in space.
I prefer to look at the draft as a whole. That said, I think I'm OK with this. I'm already guessing he won't get a tremendous amount of playing time this year, but the Giants know that you don't draft for the next 16 games, you're really drafting for a year or two down the road. Sure, you get a few players that can impact immediately, but we all know that's not the norm.
Like people have said above, this should put all the Osi trade talk to bed, and now Osi's gotta put up or shut up. There's still 6 picks left in a DEEP draft to fill some other spots. I think most of us understand that LB is not the most critical position on a Giants defense.
The secondary, on paper, is 10 times better than it was the last couple of years, and with some more talent to rush the QB, this defense has a chance to rebound.
I suspect that DT and LB will be addressed tomorrow night.
if we have Osi, Kiwi, and Tuck going into the season. That's a nasty pass-rush if everyone is healthy and Osi returns to form.
JPP looks sick in the all the clips of him. He'll be situational and rotation player this year as he gains experience. I'm not worried, we have to rebuild our d-line to the power-house it was in '07 and this might put it back over the top.
For all the people nay-saying right now, are going to be cheering like mad when he gets his first sack in the pre-season. Happens every year.
But, if Canty and the other Dts get healthy and we have no reason to think they won't - we have a respectable DT rotation. And, this is only the first pick.
He is a boom or bust player with a very low floor and they could have had Dan Williams who excelled at Tennessee in a system similar to the one run by Perry Fewell and would be an ideal replacement for Cofield/Robbins next to Canty
Which is who I think JPP compares to, would you be really upset about it? Instead, I'd be thrilled that we just got one of the most dominant defensive players in the game and an upgrade over Kiwi and Osi.
Excellent point. No one knows,including the Giants how this will turnout but for a team that needs immediate help on defense,this was a very curious pick escpecially with Morgan still on the board.
why not take them and then, hell, just get rid of Webster or Ross or Thomas...? It doesn't make sense to load up at a position where you already have very, very good players in their 20s.
Was how long it took to make the pick...
Was he our guy all along and then Morgan taken the very next pick... Hey JPP is a Giant just shows how much I know he
was the one pick that bothered me...
He can help our pass rush from the get go.. even if its just
situational .
Jerry Reese says 1st rounders should play. Well Osi and Kiwi are already fighting for playing time. Why not move up 1 pick and solidify that secondary with Earl Thomas?
Paul wont play for a cpl season probably. Its like taking a raw QB.
It's the Giants rebuilding their strength - the pass rush, which won them a Super Bowl. As the pass rush waned, so did this team.
Reese is an excellent personnel guy and the Giants have one of the better coaching staffs in the league. If anyone can unlock his full potential, it's the Giants.
imo too much of a risk especially with the 15th pick 1st round in the draft.. Now he could be a great pick or a bust we really don't know, but regardless of that why did the Giants not select Derrick Morgan if your going for a DE?? Thats whats got me baffled.. fuck.
flash back to when we drafted Kiwi. We had Strahan, Tuck and Osi, and we get Kiwi to be a passrusher. Eventually we realized we had no place for him, so we put him at LB, where he sucked. There was a time when our DEs were all hurt, and he came in and held down the fort, but even now he still is not our starting DE. We used our top pick back then for a backup. Flash forward to today. We have Tuck, Osi and Kiwi. Even if Kiwi or Osi is gone next year, which is not good for us, we get no compensation, we still have our 2 starters (Tuck and Osi or Kiwi), and he's still a backup. If we don't lose Osi or Kiwi, he's forever a backup. Why do we keep wasting our top picks on backups? It's a total waste.
The only thing that pisses me off about this pick Â
True he could turn out to be beast, plus Osi has been a problem of recent, and Kiwi has been an average player (certainly not the star we expected when he was picked in the 1st). But this team’s biggest weakness has been up the middle, and this pick doesn’t help that. JR is beginning to remind of Matt Millen, only instead of being in love with WRs he has a love affair with DEs
Kiwi couldn't get on the field so what do we do? Try to make him a LB. Then when he starts to get that, we put him back on the line. then we try to fit him in a DT. Now he wants to start and so does Osi. So what do we do? Draft a guy that will do this all over again.
I'm going to trust Reese but as far as I'm concerened our defense didn't improve with this pick. Not this year anyway.
If he played 3-5 more games and had a few more sacks the floor is raised?
If he went back to college he would have produced and your talking about a top 5 pick next year.
He's extremely explosive off the edge and a high motor/high effort guy. The floor is very high. At the very least he gives you edge pressure on the QB. And that has a lot of value.
him playing the run after more time in a world class weight room. He spent one year at D-I and jumped around. Not much time for trainers to really get him to stick to a program to really gain strength. He's already 270 and is still very lean. From what I've read, he'll work his ass off too. Besides, he won't be paid to be a top notch run defender but he will hold his own in time.
Also, you don't draft for next season - you draft for a few years down the road.
I'm expecting Osi to have a great year as a way to say f'you to the giants.
know how intensely Reese and the Giants staff scouted and evaluated JPP. Once McClain was gone, they went with BPA at what they saw as a need position. DE is a need position? Yes. Osi did not bounce back well from his torn miniscus last year and there is no guarantee he will perform at his previous level. No Guarantee. Kiwi is coming up for contract renewal. Do you think he is worth braking the bank given his production at DE? If not, put him back at SSLB at get back to me in 2 years. Our defense requires a strong pass rush from BOTH DE positions. Yes, a good push from DT is important, but you don't draft NT type DTs (Dan Williams)at #15, you can get them at the same talent level in lower rounds; i.e., Linval Thomas, Cam Thomas.
I don't subscribe to the "I trust in Reese" mantra, but the JPP pick is not without merit.
he played 1 season of high level football and played well... NOT GREAT, but well. He's got a ton of physical tools, but those tools have yet to turn into a high level of performance.
The possibility does exist that they never do. I trust Jerry Reese 100%, but I have a "glass half empty" view of the pick. It's a risky pick.
Prisco calls JPP pick BEST of 1st round (as of pick 230 Â
because the whole "you can never have too many pass rushers" is total BS. You absolutely can if they all play the same position. What if you had 12 defensive ends? Is that too many? It's a total lazy cliche that makes no sense.
But on the whole, I don't bother getting upset about picks anymore. The Coughlin/Reese regime has done well in the draft. I saw a few USF games this year, but I'm no expert. The guy had a 1st round grade. He's extremely athletic and he should be a fun guy to watch.
"I think most of us understand that LB is not the most critical position on a Giants defense. "
Nah, let's just trot out the same crap we 've put on the field the last few years....
And what the hell are the Patriots doing? Signing Holt and Patten, and letting a guy like Bryant slip through their hands? With Moss out there, could have the oldest trio of wideouts in the NFL......what pisses me off, is Dallas gets Bryant!
you tell me how it could work out well? Is JPP going to play this year with Osi, Tuck and Kiwi? Maybe a few snaps. Next year what? Do we let Kiwi walk? What was the point in drafting him? Did we get 1st round value out of Kiwi? Is JPP an upgrade? Or if we let Osi walk. Same deal. Even if we let one walk we have 3 players for 2 positions, and we get nothing for the player who walks. Paint me a picture where this works out so that we get good value out of our 1st round pick.
When you pick a player where you already have 3 starting caliber players for 2 positions, that's a luxury pick. That's a pick a powerhouse with no holes makes. Do we have that luxury? How are our LBs? How is our offensive line? How are our DTs? Do we have the luxury to get a player who admittedly will only come in relief time?
this pick isn't just for 2011 - odds are great Osi or Kiwi or both are gone after 2010...and JPP should be ready to step right in then
I love drafting the best value regardless of position - the Giants entire franchise was made in 1981 when we were loaded already ay LB, but drafted an OLB named Lawrence Taylor b/c he was the best player in the draft
Someone above compared this pick to William Joseph...WTF? This is the anti-Joseph pick - that was a reach based on need, total opposite of this pick
Did we have that many effective pass rushers last year? And, even if they all have good years - we won't be able to keep them all. And, Tuck has a tendency to get nikced up.
but I was fine with this pick. The Giants are very good at picking these type of guys, and he has a crazy first step. We swung for the fences as you should at 15.
Thought we could've went with the 1st rd pick we already have at the position (kiwi). Makes me kinda ill to see Spoon taken at #19. Oh well. I guess he wasn't worth 15, but 19 is OK.
How much was MArk Anderson in CHI supposed to play in year 1 with the talent they had in front of him? As a situational pass rusher Anderson delivered 12 sacks as a rookie.
This guy will have an immediate impact. He will not sit on the bench especially on 3rd down.
If the Giants drafted to fill a one-year need, they never would have won Super Bowl XLII. Heck, they never would have gotten there, because it was their kickass pass rush that got them to the playoffs in the first place.
Since that peak, Strahan has retired and Tuck, Kiwi, and Osi have all struggled with injuries. The team was hands down the best in the NFL during most of the 2008 season, then fell apart at the end as the pass rush melted down. In 2009 it never got going and the defense was historically bad.
Most of the guys who are sharp like the pick, and most of the bellyaching is from the usual BBI idiots who read and write at a 6th grade level. So I'm pretty happy with it
Reese & the FO have forgotten more about football than I'll ever know in 40 years of existence. I'm more than OK with the JPP pick and it definitely fills a need to replace a departing player in 2011 with what many feel would be a top 5 pick in next year's draft if he'd stayed in school. Sign me up for this guy's upside.
Do you see JPP being able to increase is point of attack strength without gaining to much weight or losing his burst?(I say burst becuase that is what others have said)
I ask this because he looked to get manhandled at time in the few clips I have seen.
plenty of 4 year guys who great in college sucked in the pros. cityjoe, there is a difference in expressing opinion and stating something as fact before the outcome has been decided.
Another thing people are forgetting - in their time together as teammates, Osi, Tuck and Kiwi have never all been healthy for an entire season together. Someone's always getting hurt. Pierre-Paul will get his opportunities.
And I just watched some of his film for the first time - how can you not love the explosiveness? Did you see how quick this guy is? Osi's the best we have in that department, and JPP looks to have him beat.
then he was the best player available. I am just worried that he is a little raw and will not contribute much this year. However, he is rated higher than OSI, Tuck and Kiwi and look how that turned out for us. The Giants do know their Des.
OSI may never be the same player or he may be heading to a different team, kiwi is on the last year of his deal. The giants valued jpp higher than the remaining players for their own reasons.
In fairness, BBI would have been torn regardless of who we picked. There wasn't a single prospect in this class that would have received resounding praise from BBI, there was a lot of mixed opinion on this site over the past several weeks.
I agree. Folks also seem to have forgotten the Four Aces package from 2007 that featured Osi, Tuck, Kiwi, and Strahan all on the line on passing downs. The team hasn't had a chance to unleash something like that since midway through 2007, when Kiwi got injured.
Actually, I hated the Dayne pick. It was the polar opposite of JPP - Dayne was a slow fat guy who ran with little power who ran up big numbers in college but didn't have the talent to succeed in the NFL. His upside was extremely limited. JPP isn't a finished product yet, but the sky is the limit for him.
And why all the carping about Dan Williams?? If college production is what you hunger for, why pick a guy who was invisible for most of his collegiate career?
he has bust written all over him. he can do freakish things but he doesn't have the right kind of athleticism for football. to me he was the yinka dare of this draft.
That's true, but there really is an overwhelming resentment of the pick. I didn't read every single post, but it seems like 8 out of 10 people do not like it. That's an awful lot of people. I personally don't get it. There's no way the Giants beat Brady without that pass rush in 2008, and last year the pass rush was a major problem.
but I have trepidation when folks only speak of the athletic ability and not much else. Too big a risk for me when it's only a handful of games to consider.
Anyone remember off the top of their heads, SY'56's Â
Run defense: Only fair change-of-direction agility for his size; he ends up on the ground too often when ballcarriers elude him. Uses his length and good effort to grab running backs coming through the hole if not engaged. Hustles to plays run away from him or downfield when fresh, but isn't fast enough to chase down running backs or mobile quarterbacks from behind. Does not know how to use his hands to get off blocks from tackles or tight ends. Often on the sideline in short-yardage situations because can't get low or stand his ground against strong tackles.
the thing is that his supposed freakish athletic ability is no better than the other DE's in this draft class. His combine numbers are no better than anyone elses.
sucked last year, but to me it seemed our DTs were the problem moreso than the DEs. Our linebackers are terrible blitzers as well.
All of these saying Kiwi might be gone next year, do you all think we got good value for him? Kiwi has been a backup and even a linebacker. Would you all be happy if JPP serves the same purpose for us? Is that 1st round pick value?
His IQ might be lower than the amount of bench reps he put up. Jeesh. I know he's likely overwhelmed right now, but listening comprehension is clearly absent there.
That being said, I am OK with the pick and the above statement is in no way a negative point to his on the field potential.
struggles to turn the corner against better linemen because of a lack of flexibility. Flashes ability to beat tight ends with quickness but is not consistent. Very raw in his pass-rush technique -- only capable of going outside and can bull rush effectively against lesser competition. Does not get off blocks to offer a secondary rush. Dances on the edge, even when running backs meet him to chip. Not effective on twists.
We drafted an athlete, not a football player. Lets hope the coaches can turn him into a football player
but there is a hell of a lot to like about the kid. The bust potential is tempered by his work ethic and character, IMO. How can you not get excited about having "one of the best speed rushers to enter the NFL in a decade or more" (Sporting News)?
Flexibility and technique issues can be conditioned. Â
Flexibility can be taken care of in a matter of months. Technique depends on the player; some players respond better to coaching than others. Hopefully JPP is coachable. If he is, it's a dynamite pick.
Maybe on a 6th rounder. I hate the pick and hope to God Reese does not trade OSI. We will really have a hole at DE. Damn Reese what were you thinking??? According to Reese he will help on special teams. You have to be kidding me.
Crazy first round so far. I caught a few picks here and there leading up to the Giants, trying to list who was available in my head.
Pierre-Paul isn't a total shocker, and I haven't read through the threads yet but I imagine it's a polarizing pick. I'm excited. Seems like a high ceiling type, honestly who the fuck knows with these prospects, I basically trust Reese and Coughlin. Hope he turns out to be a stud.
Brown Hornet, Goff doesn't possess half the athleticism that Â
we drafted a pass rusher which helped us win the SB 2 years ago. People hated the Kiwi pick, people said "whose that?" after the Osi pick, no one knows. We got a guy with a lot of upside.
kiwi and jpp have nothing to do with each other. The giants are more than likely losing one of their best DL. Other players they wanted were already off the board. I just don't see any reason to be so down about the pick, or too high. So many things can happen good or bad. I like JPP because he has from what i understand a great motor. Very important, you can be a great athlete, but if you don't care you'll be lucky if you are average. Second, he is a good athete to go along with the willingness to work/be taught. Technique can be fixed, being better educated on assignments can be fixed. Motor and athetic ability mean a whole lot.
I dunno, but it was probably similar to what he's been thinking as he became one of the NFL's best drafting GMs over the last 5 years. He knows a lot more about his roster as well as JPP than any of us do. Give it a chance to work.
The point is no one knows anything about the draft except the results from the college level and a workout before the draft. You can either focus on the positive or negative. Up to you.
but c'mon, is it hard to see why they liked him? Look, we can just pretend and call him "Weatherspoon" for a few weeks to soften the blow for you guys, but eventually we're just going to have to move on.
Have to give it a chance. I didn't pick the guy and I'm not the Giants GM. Just so many ways they could have done a better job and I'm pissed because I think the future will clearly show that to be true. Do I hope I'm wrong? Hell Yes. Do I think I am? Hell no.
The strength of the Giants DL during the Super Bowl run was the ability to shift guys and bring pressure from everywhere.
They moved Tuck inside and went with 2 other DE's- and got big time pressure. They can now do the same here. Simply move Tuck and Canty inside on passing downs, stick JPP and Kiwi on the outside to just go get the passer. Add in that Sintim will also be part of that pass-rush package from the LB slot, and the pass rush will be back in order.
I still think this is the end of Osi, no matter what the FO says. The Dolphins didn't make a point of getting a 2nd round pick for no reason. After losing Jason Taylor, they NEED an outside pass rusher, and to be honest, there won't be anything near Osi available at 40 for the Phins. They'll make the deal.
The Giants are likely to actually look at the OL in the 2nd round- interior OL. If they get the second pick, assume they will grab a LB.
This was a big pick because the defensive scheme is about pressure, not about making tackles.
IMO the most overrated Giant on BBI. Not saying he's a bad player. Just saying the praise he receives is above and beyond what he has done on the field.
Plain and simple. This guy will be a GREAT football player, and Reese didn't just say he will play specials, get the shit out of your head and listen. Our future srating DE combo woll be Pierre-Paul and Tuck. Two player that will get to the QB and defend the run. He was sixth on the teams value board. Tennessee was going to pick him, so we were very lucky to get him.
were making the big move up to take JPP. This is a great pick since Osi or Kiwi will be gone after next season. Dan Willaims was who I thought Reese taking but i like this pick. Thank goodness we didn't move up for McClain.
JPP himself. But I think that once the Bills rushed up and took Spiller, who I think if he made it past #10 the Giants would have tried to move up to get him, but the way the draft was trending, and the talent available at #15, the Giants were not going to reach for a LB and were going to go for DL. It made the most sense from an impact standpoint and a financial standpoint. Here is what I wrote last week about it
Quote:
Matt in SGS : 4/14/2010 10:39 am
that's exactly why I think they'll go for a DE. Think about it. The Giants could have pretty much ended the Osi vs. Kiwi thing by trading Osi a month or so ago when teams, including San Diego, approached them and the Giants weren't interested in dealing Osi. Also, as much as Osi had been grumbling a bit, you have not heard one peep out of the Giants disparaging Osi, using the customary unnamed sources, which has been a pattern of the team the past few years when someone is on the outs (Shockey, Plax, and Toomer to name a few).
So the Giants interest for 2010 is to keep the group together. Right now the only guy not returning from the DL group last year is Robbins, who was cooked anyway, and Waufle who they canned. However, looking towards 2011, you are going to have to make a decision on how much money you really want to spend on your DL. They have already given out big money to Tuck, Osi, and Canty. Bernard is also making decent money as well. Kiwi is nearing the end of his rookie contract and players generally know that you make your biggest financial splash in your second deal.
Remember Jacobs' statement after he signed his extension once he was Franchised?
Quote:
"You get (as much money as) you can get while you're young," Jacobs said. "And when your first two contracts are over with ... if you're in good enough shape and your body is good enough and holding up well enough, you can go and be a starter and do all those things. If not, you lower your standards and you play special teams and do stuff like short yardage and goal line and things like that."
Kiwi is entering stage 2, when he's expecting to make his money. So the Giants have to make a decision because you cannot support 3 DEs at Stage 2 of their contract structures (with Tuck and Osi in stage 2). It doesn't make financial sense.
So the smart play is to draft a DE now and get him in the system, have him learn from the group in place and utilize him in some roles as the season moves along. You'll have a first round talent at the rookie stage of his contract and be able to slot him into the mix in 2011, with Tuck and the winner of Osi vs. Kiwi.
That's why I think that they go DE in the first or second round.
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2009/02/brandon_jacobs_decided_to_take.html
The smart play all along was to go DE, whether it was JPP or Morgan.
So I didn't read the million posts before. Didn't take long for McClain & Spiller to go. That leaves Morrison to be had for a $1.50. Well, I'm also wondering about JPP, but gotta go with the scouting staff. Believe it or not they know alot more than the BBI "experts" will, ever. The song "For Whom the Bell Tolls" comes to mind re: Osi. I'm pretty sure a deal has already been in place.
is the Kiwanuka pick. It just didn't make sense. He's a decent player, but the numbers don't add up.
The wisdom of this JPP pick seems to be that Osi or Kiwi will be gone next year. That may well be true, and if that's the case, there certainly is a lot of logic behind grabbing JPP. But you have to ask why that has to be the case. Osi and Kiwi are both relatively valuable assets and we're evidently going to lose one of them for nothing or for less than they're worth. That's what happens when you "can never have enough pass rushers" that all play the same position.
You shouldn't have to spend high draft picks on guys at the same position every couple of years when those guys actually pan out. We hit on all of our picks, but we have to keep refreshing them because we can't keep our guys. Because you can have too many pass rushers if they play the same position.
Just remember Dereck Brown, Thomas Lewis, Ron Dayne, Cedric Jones, Â
...think about it. You don't draft somebody in the first round with the expectation that he will be here for his rookie contract only. And let's face it, Kiwi has not done what you'd expect from a 1st round DE. And forget the SB year, he wasn't on the field for the second half of the season and playoffs.
The pick all along. Its not rose colored glasses, its called understanding what this franchise is about. It was an obvious pick once McClain and Spiller were gone. Sorry if you can not accept being wrong.
is that this might lead to the Giants losing both Osi and Kiwi next year. Kiwanuka will probably have some choice (pending CBA), and would rather go to a team without a top-15 pick breathing down his neck. Osi is still going to be unhappy, unless the Giants kick him some more cash (which seems unlikely).
Good logic there, especially since it takes a real genius to realize that in 2011 (if there is football) both Kiwi and Osi won't be here due to contract issues and likely FA.
Not confirm anything of tghe sort. It confirms the team loves JPP, that is what it confirms, it also confirms what this franchise SCREEMS all the time, you can not have enough pass rushers. Kiwi is in his contract year, if they now lose him the Giants are not in any panic mode. This was the best player on the board when they picked.
Tuck's gotten paid already. So that's one. Kiwanuka and Osi both want more money soon. They're not going to pay all of them what they want. Somebody's going to be gone in the near future. Not this season, but more than likely next season. So you prepare now.
Its not boom or bust with this kid. He is a freak of a talent. Its the TV guys that say this crap. He does not have the experience, so he will need to be coached, but a kid with this kind of talent at this position is not going to miss as long as he stays healthy.
no, it shows that the Giants believe in a system that requires 3 top notch DEs who can rush the passer and they want to continue that. But the financial structure calls for supporting only 2 guys in their prime deals.
When Kiwi was drafted, Strahan was making big money (but was year to year), Osi was on his big money extension and Tuck was on his rookie deal.
All that has happened now is that you've got Tuck and Osi both on their big money extensions and Kiwi on his rookie deal. JPP now slots in there with the expectation that he'll be fully in the rotation in 2011 (I think that generally he'll be used in obvious pass rush situations and little else in 2010).
But the Giants are now properly preparing for life without either Osi or Kiwi. Considering age, my guess is that the Giants will shop Osi and try to keep Kiwi around.
But if you wonder why it makes sense to do it this way, look at the cost for pass rushing DEs on the open market. Peppers got a ton of money from Chicago, Jared Allen required a huge money deal plus cost a lot in terms of picks to get him. If the Giants defense is based upon athletic DEs who can rush the passer, and Tuck does his damage shifting to DT on pass rush downs, they need 3 guys. If you know that Osi or Kiwi will have to go in 2011, you make this pick now (rated in the top 10 in talent) and slot him in at the cost of his rookie money. This is the smart move and the defense needs to be replenished.
No one knows that Kiwi is gone after this year. In 2007, everyone thought Tuck was on the outs, but then he went and signed a deal just before the Super Bowl. The next year could bring anything.
As to Kiwi being a bad pick, he's done a good job here. He served as a starter in 2006 and 2008 when injuries decimated the line, was athletic enough to start as a linebacker in 2007, and beat out Osi as the starter late this year. For all anyone knows, he might be the starter in 2010, too. At the very least, the pick has had good value, and none of us know what the future holds, especially with the CBA up in the air.
that for the 2nd consecutive year our guy will be directly comparable to the guy that the Titans picked. Hopefully they both work out as well as last year's WRs.
I wouldn't get worked up about JPP vs. Morgan. Maybe we win, maybe we lose. I remember a lot of people liking DeWayne White more than Osi (myself included). The Giants won that battle.
so young, very talented players had an off-year (like the entire D). Fuck it, draft a replacement and get rid of them. Doesn't make sense to me. Osi and Kiwi are still both Giants, good players, and ready to contribute.
We can have too many pass rushers with Tuck, Osi, and Kiwi on the team. We can have too many CBs with Thomas, Ross, and Webster on the team. WR with Nicks, Smith, Manningham. And obviously QB with Manning.
Another DE on the team means either Osi/Kiwi are gone or a first-rounder doesn't get on the field as much as he should. And Nicks, Phillips etc. prove that first rounders can and do contribute right away if there's room for them on the field. I hope JPP works out, he looks like a great talent. But watching Osi or Kiwi, both in their 20s and still very good, depart, would suck.
He joined the team right before the season started.
PRD: Reese had a choice. Morgan is the safe pick, JPP is the upside pick. Time will tell.
I like the pick. First half of round 1, you go big 4-QB,DE,CB,or OT.
"Confirms Kiwi was a bad pick". Huh, that's a stupid statement. It only confirms that 1 or the other DE's are gone. 3 in the same spot ain't happening.
Bravo. You expressed much more clearly what I was trying to say.
Like it or not, the Giants clearly put a premium on pass-rushing DEs over other positions on defense. Those guys don't grow on trees, and to sign one away from someone else costs big, big bucks.
Know anything for certain. But I am willing to bet big time on this kid on this team. Tito, you will be happy with this pick, I guarentee it. The Giants don't fuck up on DE picks this high. Tuck was a third rounder, Osi a second, and Kiwi a late first, Strahan was a second. Do you think they fucked this one up. Its a joke to listen to some of the histeria, but watch when the season starts the bait and switchers start.
When they drafted Kiwi, no one knew if Tuck could stay on the field and Strahan was grumbling about retirement. That's why they drafted a DE.
Back then, I didn't have a problem with them drafting a DE, just with them doing it with their first pick, especially because the LB corp sucked (which it still does).
I still stand by a 1st round pick not being good if you don't keep the guy after his rookie year, and I don't think they do that now. We'll see. But I know that Kiwi has not been all that great. He certainly wasn't better than Osi when he took over the starting job. At least when he lined up on the edge like they had Osi do 100% of the time.
And if they think about it for a while, they might realize that picking a second-round MIKE makes sense given the lack of big-time talent at the position this year.
"Sometimes, he doesn't like attention or pressure,'' Nadie said. "I've got to yell at him and motivate him a little bit, but he is getting better at it.''
Are being short eighted big time. We just increased our ability to get to the QB, and in free agency we upgraded our ability to covers people. If it isn't obvious what the Giants are doing, then I can not paint a picture for you. This will turn out to be a great pick. He is fast, has a great motor, he hits like a freight train, he has long arms, another thing to really like along with Canty, this should really help hinder the QB's.
squeezes Sintim a bit. Maybe he's just not as good as they thought he'd be. Part of his value was supposed to be as an edge rusher, but there are only so many edges to go around.
100% correct. You will not convince anyone because they were all bent out of shape because they were all wrong. There were a few of us that saw this as obvious. The Giants had a ferw ways to go, if McClain would have dropped to uis then maybe we would have gone with him first and address this position latter, but this position was going to get addressed in this draft.
6'5 270 with athleticism and frame that reminds many scouts of Kearse Â
I don't think the Giants will let Kiwi walk, so much as he won't listen when they make an offer. Why would he want to stick around with a team that is going to have so much competition for snaps at DE?
1) They felt they had a good enough roster to gamble on a boom or bust athlete;
2) Osi or Kiwi won't be on the team past next year... if that long;
3) They could care less about what future pundits will say about passing up Morgan. But whether they care or not... the comparison will always be made... and if JP-P busts and Morgan is All-Pro... they will eat this draft for many years.
Pete, If you listened to his interview w/ Papa & Toomer on Â
giants.com,he's no rocket scientist & academics was the reason for 3 colleges in 3 years. That being said,he's a tremendous athlete who hopefully will produce as a wonderful football player with the G-Men
I'd expect JPP to be on the field in obvious passing downs with simple instructions to just go after the QB. He's a candidate for significant sack numbers as a rookie.
to put his hand on the fucking ground and run after the QB on 3rd and 8 after they say hike. With his otherworldly athletic talent he should at the very least flash in that aspect of the game.
Curtis, that's why I said hopefully he will become Â
and realizing football hasn't been this guys sport for many years. I am a bit overwhelmed. he has a lot of potential and hopefully he soaks up everything... QUICK
Will not need him to start as a full time player this season. He will get coached up, and he will watch players like Tuck, Osi, and Kiwi. He will be in on the passing downs and will help our pass rush, Strahan did nothing in year one, he turned out OK I think. Tuck did very little in year 1. This kid will contribute in year 1.
born in Haiti, didn't play ball until his Sr. year in high school, started at one JC, moved to Kansas of all places for another JC, taken to the hospital via ambulance and returned in time to reenter a game, reported late to USF b/c he had to "finish online classes," extremely poor family, nothing to lose
total boom or bust. can't find interview on giants.com, was it taken down? he's ESL? hopefully he can improve the image of haitian NFLers tarnished by Willy Joe. i don't think we ever saw Joseph do many backflips.
We took a chance on a boom or bust guy... But this draft is so friggin deep, that we just decided to TAKE THE RISK for greatness in Rd1,,, and still come out w/ a kick ass draft - Again, due to the pure/deep talent.
there's still 800 more days to the draft and there's still the post-draft FA scrapheap.
then again, I'm not a walking encyclopedia of college football, most likely 90% of the people posting here aren't either.
half of you want to run Osi out of town, but also don't seem to want to replace him. this kid might not be able to play the run to save his life in the NFL, then again... neither can Osi
How come, with such little experience, and with him only playing in 8 games in NCAA football, only 8, every expert had this kid as a top 15 player. Then as a coward would do, they say he is boom or bust. So they give themselves an out, like the fucking weatherman. But he just so happens to be on everyone ;leader board. But he is boom or bust.
mentors him. Having someone help him adjust and learn will be critical to his success. Casserly said coachability will be the key with JPP and Coughlin obviously checked this out in detail in interviews with the player and his coaches. This could turn out very, very well.
just because he is on the "experts boiard" doesn't mean he is a gurantee. He is a boom or bust. He started 7 games at D1 level, and the Giants spent a 1st round pick (at 15) to draft him. It's not like they picked him in the 3rd or 4th round. This is a risk. He could be the next Strahan for all I know. I'm not claiming I know. He could be great, and he can just as easily fail. It's not an "out." It's the truth.
to get to the QB. So, if this guys is really a "freak" pass rusher than we are in good shape. However, I don't think any of us on here can speak intelligently if this is a good pick or not. "Boom or Bust" picks generally turn out to be busts, but the only thing is certain is that we wont be able to answer that question for some time.
First of all, Mclain was really the only guy I absolutely wanted at #15. I thought LB was our biggest immediate need and he was the only LB I really felt filled that need now.
With him gone so early, I didn't know what to expect. I may be in the minority, but I didn't like the idea of Spiller because I viewed RB as one of the few areas that really didn't need to be addressed on day 1 or day two this year. The others being QB, WR, DE, P, and PK (solely because I wouldn't spend a pick in any of those rounds on a kicker).
Notice, I include DE in there. I think we might have drafted the best player available at that pick, which in some years is perfectly OK. However, this year, we have immediate needs. I think a pick at this spot, this year, should have been a guy who will come in and start from day one. Given we already have 3 very good to excellent DEs and decent depth in Tollefson, I think this is a luxury pick we may not really be able to afford.
but at 15 he was not a reach since he was going at 16 if the Giants did not pick him. Hey don't know the kid or how smart he is, but shit, did you ever hear LT talk? Not the brightess light in the bunch, but boy could he play. Also JPP comes from Hati and who knows what disadvantages he grew up with.
ability to assess talent, then you've gotta like this pick. The pick was made with a thought process unpolluted by concern over need. They picked who they thought was the best player.
If their track record of being right holds up, they likely got a hell of a player at an incredibly important position. They also hedged against Osi and/or Kiwi leaving...while adding a pass rusher off the bench almost immediately.
Time will tell, but the logic behind the pick was sound.
I have thought that he would be the top player on opur board at fifteen. I thought McClain would be gone(not to Oakland) Spiller as well(not to Buffalo). So Defensive end just stood out to me. I thought Morgan would go Earlier. This guy is a good pick people.
its amazing how soon people forget how we won the SB Â
I absolutely think he was the best player there and a better player than some of the guys picked ahead of him. From that perspective, I think he could end up being a steal base don what level of play I expect and where he was picked.
Why would you put JPP inside and Kiwanuka outside? Didn't Kiwanuka play inside in the "Four Aces" package back in 2007 before he went down with the knee injury?
wanted the "need" pick or the LB or a "want" pick of Spiiler. But guess what, our scouting departement sees ALOT more than those who are whining because we didn't go for the glamor pick..
I'm glad Reese didn't do anything stupid in trading up for a LB..And like I said before, it's also insurance if Osi busts out and Kiwi walks after the season. There is no guarantee we will have either one of them after the season..
Great vision by Reese and the FO..This guy and Tuck can be a nightmare for years to come!
and the fact I see a lot of posters whose opinions I respect, whether I agree with them or not, makes me feel better. I can't believe I'm seeing comments from some posters saying to not worry about 2011 and making it seemed like we should've taken a LB just to take a LB.
I thought KWALL had a great point earlier in the thread that was glossed over and that's how financially it makes sense to keep feeding the DE position with 'cheap labor' (read: guys who are still playing on their rookie contract). Someone asked earlier why can't we just keep Tuck, Osi, and Kiwi. Evidentally they don't understand how difficult it is to keep TWO very good, young starting Pro Bowl caliber DEs on your roster...much less THREE. Either Kiwi (IMO most likely) or Osi will be gone next off-season. This move was in preparation for that.
NOT TO MENTION, how much sense it makes to take the player you believe will have the most impact on your team over the course of a CAREER...not just next year. Some of you are showing an alarming lack of how to build a team.
Anyway...this is not the only pick in a deep draft we have. Looking forward to tomorrow!
Prior to the draft as supporting Pierre-Paul as a potential option at #15 and I'm happy with the selection. Kiwanuka is a free agent after this season, Umenyiora's future with this team is uncertain and he has never proven to be a standout performer with Strahan on the opposite side. Instead of trying to fill a need by trading up and sacrificing valuable picks or reaching for a conversion project who is best suited as a weak-side backer, they trusted their board and went with a prospect that they believe will be a home run.
Watching this guy, he is amazingly athletic. Whether he's duplicative remains to be seen. Let's see if Osi can contribute this year -- because he sucked last year, and teams took advantage of him routinely.
For all the talk of his athleticism where is that in his workouts? Â
31 inch vertical? 7.18 3 cone (good for 4th among the top 5 DE prospects)? 19 reps on the bench (worst among big name DEs)?
Honest question. I know about the quick first step and his good 40 and the backflips... but I'm surprised that doesn't translate to a good vertical, 3 cone, shuttle, bench, etc. (i.e., some of the more traditional barometers of football athleticism).
you do realize that to a certain extent you can practice the same drills over and over and over and get very good at them??
A player with arms that long simply is not going to have high bench numbers. Did you see that he actually slipped and almost fell while doing the three cone ??
What happens on the field is what matters MOST to scouts.
William didnt come off the boar until 26.. And the reality you can get a 1 technique guy much later i the draft.The Giants are sticking to their value board...
do you think we paid the gigantic Chris Canty all that money to do? Well it wasn't so we could turn around and overdraft a 1 tech the next year. Sorry if that's not as abundantly obvious to you is it is to the thinking folks around here.
The Giants don't have any "full-time" DLinemen, and haven't since at least the turn of the century. Anyone who tries to make some sort of issue of it is either being disingenuious or never actually watches the team.
Our options included who exactly at #15? Sean Lee? Who very well may be available in the 2nd round? You would've preferred that we draft the next best player at the position of greatest need just to fill a hole and completely neglect value altogether? That's not what the draft process is all about.
There are other rounds where ILB can be addressed. #15 would have been a terrible spot to do it and they just so happened to pick up the #6 overall player on their board who they believe has the most upside of any prospect in the draft. The choice was obvious for the front office.
It's all his fault..When did he make the draft a 1 round thing?..How did he manage to cut the other 6 rounds out?..We're stuck with one guy in the ENTIRE draft..Shit!
besides not moving up and taking a safety last year and selecting those two corners.
But this ....
YOU DO NOT SELECT BOOM OR BUST PICKS IN THE 1ST ROUND.
This pick wreaks of cockiness.
1. He has 0 production.
2. Its the 15th pick. Guys like this our 2nd rounders. If he gets picked by someone else so be it. Go get Iupati.
3. He's not going to see the field. Because of rawness and because of who is ahead of him.
4. Our best pass rushers on a good day wont get to Peyton Manning. Or Drew Brees. A smart CB/S in Earl Thomas would have been huge for us and would not have cost alot to move up 1 spot.I think Earl Thomas will be just as good or better than Bob Sanders.
5.You have too many pass rushers when your making them switch positions in order to get them on the field not to mention the kind of money we have sunk into the D line for backups.
That said I'll support the kid but think it was a wasted pick.
and natural athletic ability he has, he is going to be able to contribute right now while continuing to grow as a player imo. I feel like he has that kind of talent. And No, DE wasn't the biggest position of need but sometimes pure talent simply trumps the "position of need".
The Giants obviously didn't feel like there was a Linebacker with a similar talent level, so they made the smart move based on their draft board. You don't pass on a guy who you think has All Pro potential just because he plays at a position that we don't have a current hole at.
What do you all think was going on during the conversation between JPP and the Giants? Were they giving him a final grilling? I can imagine they were on the phone with him really challenging him to step up and take it very seriously.
Would you rather have a 30% chance at hitting a Home Run or a 50% chance of hitting a Double?
Sure there were other players at positions of need who may have had the higher floors and more immediate impact, but none of them has the ceiling or potential impact that JPP provides. In the NFL Draft it's all about finding the perfect balance between pure talent and need. And I would much rather my team miss by taking talent than miss by taking need.
but I havent posted or read this thread so here it goes anyway
This is pretty much the Kiwi pick. A DE when we don't really need one, at least not in the first round. We all know how that worked out. In time, we will enjoy this pick.
Strong Points: Pierre-Paul is one of the best athletes in the draft. Has outstanding quickness, speed ,length, natural strength and explosiveness. Makes a lot of big plays. Goes for the strip on sacks. Has the short area burst to gain the edge off the ball and close on the quarterback in the flash. Makes plays down the line of scrimmage with speed and quickness. He is a good athlete in space and is very flexible. Can be explosive with his hands and can stun the blocker if he comes off the ball low. Plays well with leverage and will make plays by shooting gaps.
Weaknesses: Not a real instinctive player. Better when he can just be unleashed and told to go make plays. Not a real disciplined player. Needs to improve pass rush moves and cut block awareness. Needs to finish all his plays, not just be a part time player.
Summary: Pierre-Paul is a freak of an athlete and will be a top 25 pick in the 2010 NFL draft. He is still raw in a couple of areas of his game, but he has the potential to be one of the best defensive ends in the NFL. He has great length, speed, quickness and flexibility. He has an innate ability to find gaps in the blocking scheme and by using his flexibility and quickness to penetrate those gaps to make plays. Extremely explosive first step and when his only job is to pin his ears back and rush the quarterback, he is at his best. He can dip his shoulder off the ball and barely gives the blocker any space to punch. Has a great closing burst and works to knock the ball out on contact. Plays with strong hands as a pass rusher and in the run game. Needs to improve strength to hold the double team run block, but when he comes off the ball low, he can control the blocker, shed with force and make a tackle on the ball carrier. Very good in space and covers a lot of ground in very little time. Has good jumping ability and alters a lot of throws with his length. Plays with passion and makes a lot of big plays. Needs to be more consistent and go hard all the time. Pierre-Paul has only played one season of big time college football, so he is still raw and has a lot of potential for growth. Overall, whatever team drafts Pierre-Paul will be getting a rare, explosive athlete with the ability to become a game changing pass rusher, but he is very raw and needs a lot of work so there is some real risk involved in using a high pick on him. He is a definite 1st round pick, in our eyes, but he needs to go to a team whose DL coach is extremely good at teaching the fundamentals as JPP needs the most work in this area if he is ever going to become the player he has the talent to be.
You see him overrunning the QB on several of these plays. With better technique and discipline he would have had quite a few more sacks. youtube hi/low lights - ( New Window )
At first, I was like, "Meh", but the more I read about him the more I like it. The past two seasons the Giants have lacked a severe pass-rush, and health, to the DL. Granted the primary problem, in my view, were the DT's health, but the DE's also weren't consistent. Adding a presence like JPP will help out a lot. Still look for them to add a MLB and DT in Rounds 2 and 3.
to understand that every player chosen is a "gamble". While there may be some prospects who are more likely to reach their potentials, they aren't by any means locks to reach their potentials.
Would you rather have a 30% chance at winning $10 or a 50% chance at winning $5? Simple math tells us that a 30% chance at $10 is the better gamble despite having a higher "miss rate". I feel like the Giants followed that logic and will benefit from it in the long run.
how happy I am with this pick lol. He wasn't really on my radar during the pre-draft process, but after really thinking about it I can't believe I wasn't a big fan of this potential pick before the draft.
JPP is a truly special athlete, a poster earlier in this thread or in another thread said that JPP reminded them of a combination of Osi and Kiwi. I agree with that, like Reese mentions JPP has both the very rangy wingspan of Kiwi and the powerful and quick explosive athleticism of Osi. Like Reese says, it's very rare to find a player who has both these qualities.
It's up to him and our coaches to get him to reach his potential, but holy crap is there potential. I fully believe the Giants when they say that JPP was the player they considered had the highest ceiling in this draft. He might be slightly less likely to pan out because of his relative inexperience, but he has "Superstar DE" potential. And outside of the "Franchise QB" and possibly the "Monster LT", the "Superstar DE" is the most prized player in the game.
Osi Osi - nicely put. Yeah Paulie - you got me, that was pure Â
sarcasm. I wasn't a big McClain fan even before the Crohn's, though I thought the giants would draft him if he fell to 15.
What I like about the pick is - as baadbill wrote a few times - you've got to believe the Giants are stoked about a guy if they draft a player who ISN'T at a position of need. It means they think he's a monster BPA. And I'm stoked because they picked him with Derrick Morgan still on the board. They must have thought long and hard about that because Morgan will be a very very good NFL DE, and that opinion was pretty much confirmed by the Titans grabbing Morgan a split second after the Giants nabbed JPP.
I like the idea of swinging for the fences at 15. With any luck and a reasonable return to form we won't be picking that early for the remainder of Eli's tenure. With JPP's rapid and meteoric ascent this past year, who knows but he could easily have been 2011's version of Ndamukong Suh if he stuck around for his senior season - the top DL off the board.
In 3 years, he could be the best DE in the NFL (certainly the best pass-rushing DE), and that's worth a shot, no? I would've preferred Morgan based on what I've seen, but JR trusted Ross and his team of scouts, and that's what the better GMs should do IMO.
I am still perplexed by this pick. If we wanted an athletic pass rusher we did not have to take one at #15. The problem with our DL was that we did not have someone in the middle who would disrupt plays and force everything outside which would give our DE's a shorter path. If a play was going right at Tuck or Osi or Kiwanuka they would be more effective because they would not have to run so far or beat as many people to get to the play. If you look at our DL from the Super Bowl run, Fred Robbins was healthy and dominating up the gut. Cofield is a decent run stuffer, but he does not have the power to be that disrupter. Canty has the speed to be a disrupter, but he lacks the bulk. Someone like Dan Williams would have given the Gians the best aspects of both, not to mention the fact that his best season in college was in a D that is similar to the one that Perry Fewell likes to run. If we thought that Dan Williams would have been around longer, trade down and stockpile picks in what is admittedly a very deep draft
I am not sure why you guys are all so sure you know what we need on the defensive front. Do any of us really know how much of the decline in DL play we saw since the SB has been due to aging, injuries, incomplete recovery from injuries, offenses not having to game plan for Strahan, or coaching? Unless you can assess these factors and reach the conclusion that the DEs are ready to return to the SB level and the DTs aren't, I don't know how you decide that DT is more of a need than DE.
player I didn't want to draft at #15. He is the classic boom or bust pick. Most people(experts) do agree though, that if he pans out he can be one of the elite players from this draft.
Maybe I'm just more conservative, I would have taken a "safer" player.(D. williams or M. Pouncey) With that being said, I trust Reese and Co. They gambled on greatness and I hope we all win.
why wasnt he at a D-1 school to begin with? Was he academically challanged coming out of high school? Was top in the nation as a college recruit? Was he injured entering college and scholarships were withdrawn?
If he only has played 7 games against top level folk in college we really have no clue what we have in him...either way good or bad. He could be LT and Mike S. roled into one or he could end up being a gigantic waste of the 15th pick. Its said he was value at 15....but how do you determine value when he has no meat on his resume?
sorry fell asleep earlier haha. Getting back to JPP's athleticism, so you explain away the bad verical, bench and mediocre 3 cone by saying he wasn't as prepared as the other prospects?
Sorry, not buying it.
If you draft this guy under the notion that he's some sort of raw freak who just needs to be coached and has all this athletic ability then yes, you need to have a good combine/workout at the very least to back that up.
If you were going on a long college career of elite production, then I would minimize the combine/workouts. But when you're essentially saying that you drafted the guy because he has off the charts athleticism.... I want to see a little more than a 30.5" vertical and 19 reps on the bench at 266 lbs.
Sorry but this pick bothers me more than any under Reese. A top 15 pick spent on a guy from a smaller school, with little production and not even eye popping measurables.
W...T...F
I think the selection says as much about the other DE on the board Â
You have a comment about the guy possibly being a bigger Dwight Freeney and this pick sucks? The objection about lacking functional strength is BS - that's what NFL weight programs do, add functional strength.
The Giants were picking at #15 and they added a player who could realistically be an impact player at the game's 2nd most important position. This is a tremendously exciting selection.
still not happy with the pick but no longer angry. clearly we all need to root for the kid to turn into the menace that the experts say he will be. I couldn't want to be more wrong about this guy. time will tell. until then:
First of all, for all of you crying about the pick, look at it this way... McClain was gone, CJ Spiller was gone, and Earl Thomas was gone. We'd been hearing rumblings of JPP being on our board, and turns out he was 6th rated overall. So you say, why didn't we trade down? Well, for what? When Seattle took Earl Thomas, what was the reason for anybody to want to trade up at that point. Maybe only Tennessee, but they wanted Pierre Paul. So, if we valued him, why would we trade down a spot, miss our pick, and possibly drop numerous spaces on our draft board. No, if the value isn't there to trade down, which it probably wasn't, you take BPA, and in our case, it was JPP.
Now, here's why I really love the pick. What's been really missing on our D line since 2007? I think it's the Strahan like pressence. This kid has the impact (hit wise) that I didn't see from McClain. He just uncoils on you. Watch that Sports Science video on him. It's sick. I think this kid's going to be a force.
You can never have enough pass rushers. We were stacked at DE when we took Kiwi, too.
Bottom line, he was the BPA on our board, and the value probably wasn't there to trade down. Probably a no brainer for Jerry at that point.
We can debate the possible reasons, but our pass rush was a huge disappointment last year. Maybe Tuck et al. will benefit from a little fire breathing down their necks.
Of you who ask the question how this kid will help the team this year its real simple. If you paid attention to Coughlin instead of being in the bitching mode you would have heard him say that this kid can line up anywhere along the line of scrimmage. When you have two players like that, Tuck being the other player, then you have the flexibility to attack the opposing teams WEAKSPOT along the line. This game is all about MATCHUPS. So now when you lineThis guy up along the line, you are not only looking at moving Tuck, but now this kid will also be moving anywhere along the line. This was also something that Strahan could do, you guys do remember what the combination of Strahan and tuck could do in the pass rushing schemes. Now you have that once again. This kid is a matchup nightmare with his quickness and athleticism. He will help create the havoc that we all loved to see. it was not there last season, we had to go in this direction.
If it was SOOOOO good to have 4 DEs (a la Strahan, Osi, Tuck and Kiwi) ---- why did we try to convert Kiwi into a OLB?
Reasoning was we wanted the best players on the field as much as possible. IE you can't get 4 good DEs on the field at the same time.
We are back to the same situation. Amazing how quickly people forget. Stop trying to justify a poor pick. The Giants blew this one.
If JPP turns out to be a great player, it means Osi / Kiwi are no longer with the G-Men. Therefore, either this first round pick was a waste or previous 2nd/1st rounder were a waste.
You draft players to last their careers on your team, especially 1st/2nd rounders. Not to last their rookie contracts and walk away.
...shows what you know, I played right there on Cary/Harrison next to the gym...before they tore it down....and rebuilt a nice one.
I pulled a whole lotta flags that season, considered the pro's but figured that at 162.8lbs, 5'9.75" with a solid but unspectacular 5.68 - 40 and a 6" vertical.
Maybe Goff. You going to judge him on a few starts from last seasons disaster? Plus there are 6 more picks to go and plenty of talent still available. Osi may be traded, but maybe not, it really does not concern us as much now, but Osi has three years to go, Kiwi is in his walk year though, its hard to imagine the Giants giving him a big contracr unless he has a big year this season. So the Giants are in position to not overpay a player like Kiwi if they do not want to, or if they did pay him because he has a big year and Osi is then unhappy, they could now trade him.
Player Comparison: Gaines Adams. Forget that Adams was a bust in Tampa. This comparison has everything to do will the SKILL SET and JPP is exactly like Adams. Different intangibles could lead to a different career for JPP.
At that point in the draft, no matter who we got (OL,DL.LB,CB) the player would not be starting game 1. JPP is a great luxury pick that can really help us get to the QB (which we lacked this past season)...our defense heavily relies on pressure. we did not do good last year in that category and that in turn exposed our secondary big time.
I think its a great pick and he has all the potential to be a great football player...
as far as who our MLB will be, I'm happier with Goff in the middle rather than reaching for Weatherspoon or somebody else at 15, if there was not a trade down available for the right value, especially with the potential for Sintim to step up on the outside.
Add in the fact that we picked up another pass rusher and I'm okay with it. They're already possibly preparing Boley to call the plays so Goff only has to perform.
1)He's has little D1 experience so with pro coaching he'll be better when he gets at this level. He's this good without having a major program behind him for 3 years.
2) He needs to get stronger at the POA & with a f/t NFL strength coach he should.
3)He's young & 270 with room to add more weight.
4)Everyone describes him as having a blur for a 1st step & an 81" wing span that aren't going away.
5) His playing style is described as relentless. He needs work on his pass rush moves & again with NFL coaching he will get better.
This is a pick with a ton of upside that makes perfect sense, with considerations to Kiwi/Osi, importance in our scheme, & a premium position to boot.
I can tell you that on his three cone I saw he slipped and almost fell on the last part which would affect the time and I can certainly tell you which ANYONE that knows ANYTHING about bench pressing can tell you that a person with REALLY long arms will not press the same weight as many time as someone with shorter arms.. jPP has an 81" wingspan,, huge.. very long arms. that will affect his bench press a lot..
They were trying to take advantage of Kiwi's athletisicm, it was not because they had too many DE;s, that was crap on BBI, you believe this crap you read? The Giants have Sintim to play that position now, a player with close to the same athletisicm as Kiwi only he played the position. The Giants saw when Osi got hurt in 2008 that kiwi belonged as a DE when he started an entire season for a very good defense. This pick is all about matchups on passing downs, its become a passing league now, we now have two players that will be moving all over alng the line on passing downs in Tuck and Pierre-Paul. We did not put any pressure on the QB last season, it was the single worst area on the defense, now with this kid, that will change dramatically.
I said the giants should take a LB in the 1st. I never said no matter what or at all cost. Get it right. I said if mcclain was there he would be the pick and i think most people here agreed.
at football outsiders HATES JPP. I didn't see him play at all in college so I can't rate the pick. But if SackSeer is an accurate predictor, then the pick makes me nervous.
Quote:
Jason Pierre-Paul, University of South Florida
Vertical: 30.5", Short Shuttle: 4.67, SRAM: 0.44, Missed Games: 26
Projection: 3.8 Sacks through Year 5
This projection is not a misprint. Although Pierre-Paul is widely regarded as one of the top edge rushers by draftniks, it is hard to conceive of a prospect that SackSEER would like less.
Is it fair to say that Pierre-Paul 26 missed games because he spent his first two years in junior college? Yes, because the few recent edge rusher prospects with junior college experience were among the worst defensive draft picks in recent memory. The illustrious list includes Anton Palepoi, Jerome McDougle, Tony Bryant, Lamar King, Erik Flowers, Michael Boireau and most recently, David Veikune, Cleveland's 2009 second-round pick, who did not record a sack as a rookie and was inactive for much of the season. Unless you count Julian Peterson, a 4-3 linebacker who doesn't fit this study, you have to go back to Leonard Little in 1998 to find a former junior college player who panned out in the NFL, and Little spent only one year at junior college. When Tony Bryant is your upside, you're in trouble.
So why do junior college edge rushers struggle so mightily when transitioning to the NFL? Most edge rusher prospects who play at the junior college level miss two years worth of their NCAA eligibility, and they are understandably "raw" when they enter the professional ranks. Although many coaches believe that such a player can be "coached up," the coaching staff can only devote so much of its valuable coaching resources to a single player. Moreover, many players who go to a junior college have significant or severe academic issues, and expecting them to digest a complicated NFL playbook while also "catching up" on their fundamentals may be unrealistic.
However, even if we removed the missed games adjustment, Pierre-Paul would still have the worst projection in this class. Although Pierre-Paul's "handflips" video has earned him the distinction as the 2010 NFL Draft's consummate physical "freak," he put up poor numbers in all of the workout metrics that matter to SackSEER. This is certainly not the first time that similar "gimmicky" athleticism has not translated into workout numbers. For instance, just last year, San Diego State defensive lineman Jarron Gilbert made waves (pardon the pun) with a widely circulated video depicting Gilbert jumping out of a swimming pool flat footed. Despite his aquatic jumping ability, Gilbert only registered a 35.5-inch vertical leap at the Combine.
The ability of Pierre-Paul to translate his particular brand of athleticism to pass rushing success is speculative at best. Overall, the general manager who pulls the trigger on Pierre-Paul better be very confident that he has something special -- so special that it will completely buck the historical trends.
I said at that point in the draft...McClain was gone.
At 15, even if we traded up for Earl Thomas, got Dan Williams, Buluga, Iupati, Wilson, and many others, I really don't think they would be starting game one...
So get JPP, who can come in his first year and just be a pass rushing specialist can really help our team out.
You, sit there on your computer, make some evaluations based on some highlights and scouting reports.
Jerry, was a scout in the org for years. In 2002, he took over control of heading the draft. From that time, he drafted players and helped build a team that went on to beat one of the greatest teams of all time in the SB to complete on e of the greatest championship runs in this team's history.
but I would have been satisfied with any # of other players.
i think a big part of why I'm so disappointed is because this pick means Kiwi's a bust and Osi is gone. I was hoping to go forward with those guys. And yes possibly re-sign one or both. Now we get to go into the season with two lame duck DEs. Not very inspirational.
Brit in VA. Thanks, I certainly hope so, however, I can not get over my feeling, that will all the talk about McClain, and not getting him, a lot of air went out of the balloon. Some time ago an article in my "Giant Insider" mentioned Daryl Washington amoung others as a possible Mike? Do you think he is a possible 2nd rounder or is it too soon to pick him?
SteveMD
did any of you happen to notice that after McClain was gobbled up too quickly to be worth a trade-up, no other LB was considered worthy of a first round pick?
So the Giants were supposed to reach for a second round-level talent, rather than go BPA? Oh.
Btw, a lot of mocks have Lee available when the Giants pick in the second round. Maybe theygo that route. To me, an ideal sequence, if the talent is there, would be ILB, DT and then OL or RB.
said he talked to Marvin Lewis about JPP. He said Lewis knows something about defense and said JPP is far and away the best pass rusher in this draft and the kid doesnt even really understand 100% what he is doing. He said a lot of what he is doing is instinct and ability. Lewis said the one thing that impressed him is that he will switch up pass rush moves quickly. Like if one isnt working he will quickly switch to another move. Lewis said most rookies will tend to try to use the same move or what they figue is their best move over and over and over. According to Glazer Lewis said when this kid gets some coaching you could easily be looking a a Demarcus Ware type of player.
That's what I get for believing what I read. Sorry. So there was one. That still means there was very little talent considered first round-worthy at the position. We don't know how the Giants had Weatherspoon graded, of course.
I'm still thinking maybe Lee in round two.
With McClain off the board I'm ok with not taking a LB in Rd 1 Â
For the record, the only reason I posted that tidbit was because Named Later asked about Robert Nunn (who was a co-defensive line coach for the Bucs prior to his coming to the Giants).
"Overall, the general manager who pulls the trigger on Pierre-Paul better be very confident that he has something special -- so special that it will completely buck the historical trends."
Apparently, Jerry is very confident.
I think Jerry Reese and Co. bought into the hype. Â
ironically, it's what I absolutely DID NOT like about McClain. When Pierre Paul hits you, he uncoils on you like a steel spring. There is a lot of impact. I didn't see that in McClain.
it is so evident that most of these negative comments are nothing more than repeated comments made by others expressing personal feeling and are mostly from individuals who lack experience in evaluating NFL talent.
Reeses Pieces and his Scouting Staff have a pretty distinguished reputation on being successful in evaluating players talent, and as to how that individual will fit into our Giants future. Yes, there are risk involved when selecting draftees, and yes, not every player selected will not be a favorite of the fans, but, you can be assured that the selected player was analized, researched, and investigated theroughly before the Giants made their selection and or selections.
Most importantly, we just have to realize and understand that we are merely Giant's Fans, and by being a fan, we should be able to entrust our Giant's destiny to the Giants Organization, and not to trust or be swayed by some opiniated, loud mouth quoting some after the facts, negative comments, by biased groups of individuals who post here on BBI or on other related sites. A ounce of loyality is always worth more that a pound of cleverness or deciet.
A critic is a critic, and a loud mouthed opinated and negative poster lambasting and forcing his presesence on others, is exactly what he is, and people sounding off, are what that are, and it is ok to disagree, you believe in what you believe, and we can believe in what we believe, and that should be all there is to it.
The Giant's selected JPP, lets see what the Kid can do, with his up-side we should see some exciting football coming from him and our defensive unit in the near future.
...I can certainly tell you which ANYONE that knows ANYTHING about bench pressing can tell you that a person with REALLY long arms will not press the same weight as many time as someone with shorter arms.. jPP has an 81" wingspan,, huge.. very long arms. that will affect his bench press a lot..
This is 100% true, that's why you'll see a lot of OT prospects with relatively low rep #s.
Still, what concerns me most is the Giants made a pick with only about 3 1/2 hours of legit game tape to watch. I don't care what anyone in the Giants organization says, the decision had to be made mostly on measurables more than legit D1 competition, because there just isn't enough legit D1 competition.
I mean, the Jets are a team that makes picks based on measurables... and we see how those picks often blow up in their faces.
But I'll admit, I was pretty pissed last night. The pick just didn't make sense to me with all the needs this team needs. But I trust Jerry Reese. And if you watch clips and read up on Jason Pierre-Paul, it's impossible not to like him and not get excited at what the finished product CAN be.
besides the comment about the bench press, there is so much wrong with your post I'm not sure where to start.
First, you have no idea the extent of research that went into the pick. None. For you to somehow claim 'the decision had to be made mostly on measurables' is simply asinine as you have zero clue what they talked about.
And somehow, I'm guessing the Revis and Sanchez picks had little to do with measurables.
I was hoping for a LB but McClain was gone and Spoon was too big a reach there, so it's not a bad pick.
I do worry about what GiantsLaw said a few posts ago though...about going into the season with two lameduck DEs (Kiwi and Osi...one or likely both gone after the year).
and slept in today, so I'm a little late to this party.
I hate this pick, we needed an immediate impact player on the defense and we took the biggest boom or bust player in the draft. LMAO at Eric's "KWALL will love it, and KWALL knows his shit". KWALL loves big guys who run fast, combine freaks, he'd make a phenomenal GM of the Raiders. KWALL definitely knows some football, but his seal of approval on this pick doesn't mean a thing.
If it's ok I would like to express an opinion on a fan message board. The guy played in only seven D1 games. 7. Sanchez and Revis had more than that. And they were coached by a D1 program for years before they started.
So since I am asinine, maybe you can help me out: apart from the 7 games, what exactly did the Giants base their decision on?
"I think Jerry Reese and Co. bought into the hype. ... Â
I'm gonna say....no. Read his statements on how the Giants select players. Look at the # of scouts on the roster, understand that they dissected every aspect of his game.
I was asking a general question about our new DL coach, which Klaatu answered with the Football Outsider's quote.
I just went over to the Tampa Bay website to check out Robert Nuun's Bio to see if he's developed any long, lean DE's....guys like Michael Bennett, Kyle Moore, or even Tim Crowder.
Did Nunn help our very own Maurice Evans last year...inconclusive at this time.
read their words and either believe what they're saying Â
I couldn't care less with who agrees with me...the KWALL seal of approval being good enough is hysterical to me...I can tell you who KWALL likes before he does. Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but revisit KWALL's take on Vernon Gholston, he sure is awesome.
in my twisted mind, as we see an athletic freak like JPP, I think of 2 people related to the Giants in the past. Eric Swann and Frank Ferarra.
Swann as a DT who did not play college football because he was academically ineligible. Instead of trying to get his grades up or attempt a JUCO type of climb, he decided to join a semi-pro league, where his immense physical skill and size made him unblockable. He was also a physical freak and powerful and scouts wondered about him and people were turned off by his lack of experience. But he was raw and had natural ability which could not be coached. The Cardinals took their shot at him and made him the 6th overall pick. Within a couple of years, he was in the Pro Bowl.
That lead's me to Ferarra. Bless his heart, Ferarra was a fiesty DE, motor constantly running, 10000% effort guy. But simply not that skilled. He was coachable, played hard. But at the end of the day, this is a league for people who have rare talent. And while we all root for the underdog, lunch pail guy who is "just like us", when they needed production on the field, we saw Ferarra playing patty cake with the Niners offensive line as the Giants called on him to help rush the passer in that playoff debacle in 2002.
You give coaches guys with ability like JPP and look for them to explode when the light goes on. You want to go for that Eric Swann type because the ceiling and impact is so much greater. With the Giants DE depth right now, JPP can be used in 2010 to come in on passing downs and told simply "go get the QB". The Giants can coach him up to be an every down player as the season moves along. Let him learn from the vets and be ready to turn into a dominant force. That's why you go for the rare skillset player, even when they are inexperienced.
I wanted Dan Williams of the guys who was left as well...the fact that he dropped doesn't mean he can't play. Maualuga dropped farther than anyone predicted he would last year and that kid is a player.
pretty indifferent, hated it on first reaction. Cooled down, thought it through, read the comments from ross/tc/reese, love the upside even though I hate saying that. Realized I have no idea what goes on in the war room. Realize I sure as hell don't have nearly as much at my disposal to really like or dislike it.
I rreally like this pick, and think JPP is in an ideal environment to make an impact from day one. Not a lot of pressure, but we can put him in position to win favorable matchups while also building him up to NFL speed. If he's 6th on Jerry's board I'm thrilled.
we would take Dan Williams or Iupati that high.
It isn't the Giants way, those are not high priority positions to the Giants. Guards rarely go top 15, and you don't spend that high of a pick on a DT who can't rush the passer.
Once Spiller and McClain came off the board, it was pretty obvious they were either going to trade down or take a DE.
Fair enough. I hated it on first reaction, still hate it now. Watched the draft with friends who root for different teams, when we were up I said the one guy I didn't want is JPP, and we are going to take him...then we did.
I'm not trying to bash KWALL, he's a good dude and not a total idiot, but the fact that the guy writes like he's Mel Kiper III and quotes measurables until he's out of breath in no way makes him a draft expert. He's a fan and watches no more football than the majority of this board.
Be a fanboy who blindly likes everything the Giants do because the decision makers are paid to be decision makers and you are not.
The Jets also have well compensated decision makers that saw fit to take Vernon Gholston in the top 10 when he screamed bust. The Giants have well paid decision makers who saw fit to take such luminaries as William Joseph and a RB who had a guy bigger than ScottnMorgantown, just because the guys in charge think it is the right move doesn't mean a) that it is or b) that I have to agree.
it was obvious why my initial reaction was what it was. I had plenty of reservations about it because I had simply hadn't watched (still haven't, going on others' perspectives).
And yea, not to badmouth kwall, not the point. But the priority placed on measurables for him is wayyyy too much for me.
1. He had "zero production" - However, the head of scouting for the NY Giants said he impressed in every game and jumped out at them in every single game. He also played vs several NFL caliber OTs and was a handful. Anthony Davis is one of the best pass blockers in this draft. Some say the best and he gave him some problems.
2. High bust rate or "low floor" - According to Reese, "only the guys on TV say that...you don't hear scouts saying it". I think he may be the best player in the draft. Maybe he'll never get there and full develop his game. At the very least he's going to give us an extremely explosive edge rusher. There is a lot of value to that in the NFL. At worst, he's a situational pass rusher chipping in 6-10 sacks a year. Think of Mark Anderson as a rookie with the Bears(12 sacks in part time duty). JPP is better than ANderson.
3. "I still don't understand this pick" or "why another DE" - He was ranked #6 on the Giants board and that is probably underrating JPP. We are sitting at 15 and the #6 player is there at the 2nd most important position for a football team! And we have a bunch of "we don't need another DE" posts. Kiwi has been very avg. Kiwi and Osi may be out the door very soon. Not only do we need one we probably upgraded with JPP.
4. "It's a measurbales pick" - Wrong! The actual measurables were not spectacular. This is a guy who "does things I've never seen before on a field"(Ross) and he impressed the Giants scouting dept in every game he played. It's about the rare burst and movement on the field in pads and not the numbers at the workouts.
And finally, this guy would have went back to South Florida and put up 12+ sacks and he would have been a top 5 pick next year. Maybe #1 overall. WHat is that? A $50 million deal? We just got him at #15 and that adds up to 5 years and $18 million!!!
He will help the team.
He will help them immediately.
You will see JPP abusing NFL QBS soon. I'm thrilled PHI traded up and picked the wrong DE. We got the better player!
Great start to the 2010 draft.
Up next? A DT or LB with speed.
And maybe a WR to piss of the "we don't need another ___" crowd! How about WR Benn from Illinois in rd 2?
measurables are his only criteria...the ONLY one. And the history of the NFL draft is littered with guys who had great measurables who suck at football.
This is football. And just like most of the NFL I love guys who can run. No doubt about it.
JPP measurables were disappointing. I expected better. But it doesn't change the stuff he did on the field and my believe it will really work in the NFL.
We will find a way to get all 4 on the field at the same time. If Alford comes back from injury and picks up where he left off last preseason (a big question) then we have 5 guys who can rotate in throughout that package.
bottomline - we are back to the same depth we had at DE the year we won the SB. No more, no less. Solidify the LB corps and the DT position and we are back to being a QB's worst nightmare to play against. Not to mention the additional athleticism we now have in the secondary.
unlike most of the NFL you are infatuated with guys who can run to a point where it completely skews your opinion of players both positive and negative. Without recalling, I'd bet you were a big Darrius Heyward-Bey guy as well...
And what is this nonsense about JPP not being a measurables guy? He's 6-5 270 with condor arms, huge hands and ran a 4.67...he's the definition of a measurables guy. Link - ( New Window )
THe biggest boom or bust take? Not only do I disagree with that and said it for months now.
But the Giants front office disgrees. You're the guy quoting the Kipers now. According to Reese it's the TV guys who say that and not the Giants scouts.
It's ridiculous really. He's either a HOF or bum? He can't be a situational edge rusher giving a team 6-10 sacks a year?
Why? Does he have physical limitations that will prevent it? No he doesn't.
The boom or bust comments come from guys who say "he only played 1 season" and this "is a measurables pick". It doesn't come from guys who can see the immediate impact this speed rusher can give to a team. And why his unique skills actually give him a high floor.
People say he only played one season and he's a measurables pick because....he did only play one season and he is a measurables pick. Despite what you say, he didn't light the world on fire at USF.
The NFL is full of guys with speed and measurables who dominate the league. THis is why they keep drafting them.
It's really weak to bring up 1 or two measurable guys. You think it makes a point against them? It doesn't.
You can find high production, high intangible, and high everything else guys and find plenty of failures. A lot goes into their success in the NFL. But what we have seen is one thing to reducde the failure rate is to draft explosive athletes.
And JPP Measurables? Very good. The vertical and shuttles were not spectacular. Morgan beat him in most categories. He's compared to Kearse but Kearse had much better measurables. A lot of guys have better measurables entering the NFL. A lot of guys don't cause problems for blockers like this player.
They drafted him because he impressed on the field in evert game. "Jumped out at them".
for a number of reasons. The Giants can (and I wish they would) trade Osi if they want. Or they can make him play and now have taken his leverage away as far as a holdout goes or a demand for a new contract. The Giants can play hardball with Osi and his leverage is gone.
#2) I saw a lot of highlights of JPP and the one thing I like his how flexible he is. This is a big difference between he and Osi. Osi is not a great leverage, lean (angle not body style) guy (Think LT when he would rush around the corner and give his shoulder the OT while leaning and dipping low until he was around the OT and going after the QB. Osi just tries to sprint deep into the backfield and around the OT.
JPP looks like a guy who can lean in more and cut his angle to the QB down from the Osi "I am on a site seeing detour to the QB" path we have seen the last two years.
pick tells me is that the teams' head remains in the right place. Get after the quarterback...make 3rd and long a miserable down for the opposing offense. The long term philosophy is going to continue to be to play pass defense by attacking the quarterback.
The only pick I would have liked better was Iupati. But I'll take JPP happily. The philosophy is sound.
said he did. Professionals from the Giants agree with me. He "Impressed in every game".
You can whine all day about 6.5 sacks. When he was on the field he impressed. Of course, what do the Giants know. Some guy in Fl certainly knows more about what JPP did on the field in 09. Isn't that right?
with the bullshit about having to like the pick because the Giants professionals liking him. The point of this board is to swap opinions and I don't agree with everything we do. I've NEVER railed against a draft pick we've made...ever.
they don't even compare well with Morgan's or Graham's. This pick does worry me greatly from an inexperience, boom/bust/, need, soft middle of the defense perspective.
I didn't find JR's answer to the question: "If you had him #6 [overall], why did you use almost all of your time?"
Ans: [not verbatim] "Well, we were waiting to see if some other things might happen, then we were talking to JPP on the phone."
I'm not sold.
Compare: look especially at the 3-cone and short shuttle, re. quickness. 40-yard dash about the same with both.
Morgan:
Quote:
Derrick Morgan DE Georgia Tech
Height: 6’3” Weight: 266 pounds
Hand Size: 9 3/4" Arm Length: 34 1/2"
Combine Workout: 4.77 40 yard dash (1.60 10 yard dash), 34” vertical leap, 9’4” broad jump, 7.12 3-cone, 4.43 short shuttle
Pro Day Workout: 21 bench press reps of 225 pounds, stood on the rest of
JPP:
Quote:
Jason Pierre-Paul DE South Florida
Height: 6’4 3/4" Weight: 266 pounds
Hand Size: 10 3/8” Arm Length: 34 3/4"
Combine Workout: 4.71 40 yard dash (1.65 10 yard dash), 19 bench press reps of 225 pounds, 30.5” vertical leap, 9’7” broad jump, 7.18 3-cone, 4.67 short shuttle
Pro Day Workout: 31.5” vertical leap, 9’9” broad jump, stood on the rest of
Graham:
Quote:
Brandon Graham DE Michigan
Height: 6’1 3/8” Weight: 268 pounds
Hand Size: 9 7/8” Arm Length: 32 1/4"
Combine Workout: 4.71 40 yard dash (1.61 10 yard dash), 31 bench press reps of 225 pounds, strained his left hamstring and skipped the rest of the workout
Pro Day Workout: 31.5” vertical leap, 9’3” broad jump, 7.01 3-cone, 4.25 short shuttle
say what you want about me, but I don't fancy myself as a moron. I watch plenty of football and I live in Florida, I can guarantee that I've seen this guy as much as almost anyone on this board.
...maybe you are prickly this morning from arguing with other posters. Anyway, I have read what they said. And they mostly gushed about things like reach and length and first step, definitely more that what he did in college. From Reese:
Quote:
Q: How about the fact that he didn’t have a lot of high level college experience?
A: You take that into consideration, but he played well in a big league this past season. We think the guy has the biggest upside out of any player in the draft. Any player in the draft. That’s how we really feel about this guy.
And then this:
Quote:
Q: What are these things he has that you can’t teach him?
A: The length, number one. He’s 6′4″, 270 lbs. The speed that he has and the long arms he possesses, the athletic ability that he has. Those kinds of things just come naturally raw, oozing with talent and the motor that he has. All those kind of things he has, you know, it’s hard to find a package like that. He has some freakish athletic skills that we’re excited about trying to hone and get him on a good path toward workouts.
.....
Q: Do you think he’s similar to Jevon Kearse coming out?
A: Length-wise, he’s built similar to Jevon Kearse so yeah that’s a good comparison. The body type he has that’s kind of stringy looking. You rarely see guys with that kind of length and that type of body type. He does have a body type like Kearse, yeah.
Also, Marc Ross does talk about his college games, but makes it pretty clear that they started watching JPP just this past season:
Quote:
He was a guy that during the season when I went to South Florida because I had four senior guys – where you put the tape on and you say, "Wow, who is the world is this guy?" Because you don’t know anything about him; he just got there. But he makes you take notice because he is jumping off the film.
To me it's really simple, either the staff based the pick primarily on 7 games of D1 football, or they based it primarily or equally on something else. And Reese's comments to me make it seem like they based their decision mostly on stuff apart from actual gameplay. That's what I meant by "measurables".
So, look, all things being equal, I am always for drafting the more athletic guy over the "intangibles guy" but college production is always the most important thing, IMO. And here there is an extremely small sample size, so small that I am concerned. I'm not saying it was a bad pick, but one that I am worried about. (That and I think Morgan is a better prospect. But whatever, they didn't pick Morgan, so I'll move on from that.)
Say wha? You mean our own scouting staff is discussing his measurables in great detail? I thought the idea that we picked him for his measurables is ridiculous? I thought we picked him for his stellar college career?
I just hope he is not a combination of William Joseph and Ron Dixon. Lots of sizzle; hope there's some steak here. Just seems like a return to the Giants First Round drafting of the past.
Just have to see how the rest of the selection go.
Q: Is it more difficult to grade a guy like this who has had a limited amount of playing experience?
A: Well, if you just base it off of when he played, it is very easy to grade the guy because he tremendous. And then you go, and just like any player that is my job – to scout these guys and dig deep and find out whatever --- all players have strengths and weaknesses, red flags. It is our job to dig deep and feel comfortable with those and research them so that we know they are a good fit for us.
Quote:
Q: Given his limited playing time, how much actually did you guys put in terms of time to scout him? How many games did you see; how many films did you look at? And was there one that really stuck out and you said, “Hey, this guy would be great for us.”
A: Well, I have probably seen every game he has played this year. Our scouts, the way I have them do it, we have three scouts that do that area, they break down different parts of the season and do it. Of course the coaches get involved. Every game – Florida State – he jumps out on tape every game he played.
Quote:
Q: You guys are obviously comfortable with this pick. But is it tough to get comfortable with a guy who has such a limited body of major college work?
A: Of course you would like all guys to be fifth-year seniors or four-year starters and producers and all of that kind of stuff. But that is why you do the research. That is why we have the scouts and these guys that take a lot of pride in their job to make sure we get this thing right. And I take a lot of pride in what I do. And I wanted to make sure that we were totally comfortable with this guy.
Quote:
Q: There is a lot said about his ‘up side’ and when you look at a guy a lot of times you have to weigh potential against what you think you can get out of him right away. How much did potential kind of outweigh what you can get right away in looking at this guy for long term?
A: If he was a bad player and we were just basing it on potential, then you don’t make the pick. But this guy is a very, very good player; tremendous player, an impact player who we still see with tons of upside, probably the most upside in the draft. But it is not like we are saying, “Man, we are hoping.” We see it. The guy does tremendous things on the field. And he is a good player that we are hoping still gets a lot better.
But remember, BBB lives in Florida, so he's got that going for him.
Funny. In one sense you have to like that Reese puts an emphasis on athleticism. The days of Tom Boisture's "you can't measure a player's heart" or "we drafted him because he's tough as a boot" are long gone, thank goodness.
he would have been a top 5 pick and possibly #1 overall. Do you believe some of the bullshit you write? What in the hell are you basing that nonsense off of?
And if William Joseph left after his junior year he was going top 5...
He only started games last year because he reported to the team on August 24th - literally days before the season started. The team supposedly planned to redshirt him this year since they thought there was no way he would be able to contribute. In the few days of practice they saw him, they decided he could, and within 4 games he was dominating.
The reason he reported to the team so late in fall practice was that he was finishing up an online class to get academically eligible.
apparently, he reported to USF late after qualifying academically over the summer, and missed most of teh 2-a-days. It apparently took him a little while to catch up, which is why he didn't start until the 4th or so week.
Commited to UCF, but could not qualify. Out of JUCO drew offers from Forida, LSU, Bama, most of the SEC powerhouses. Didn't want to go another semester at JUCO to qualify for those schools so he chose USF. Only has the one year there. But he has been on a pretty steep rise.
Also IMO that makes his performance that much more impressive Â
Some of his best games this year were against quality teams - Miami, FSU, Cincy, Pitt
Can you imagine what this guy would have been like with 3-4 years in a college weight program like Kindle, Graham, and Morgan?
Athletically I think it's safe to say his 'measurables' will probably improve when he gets into a first class weight program. I dont think Canyons CC has a reputation for pumping out combine warriors but I could be wrong.
My response wasn't to you. It was just a coincidence that you posted your question right before mine. Sorry about that. My response was to everyone who is saying that he only played in 7 games and should not have been the pick.
First time I predicted a pick since the super obvious Shockey and Dayne!
This is Reese, Coughlin and the staff being smart, experienced and true to what wins championships in this era of pass-first football - athletic and relentless pass rush.
It's also an extremely shrewd and sound move to protect and anticipate any talent loss if/when Osi leaves. Most important - they improved the speed and athleticism of the defense big time with this move.
considering that Selvie was basically a non factor this past year, I would say those are pretty good stats when you cosnider the Noles must have started doubling JPP by midway through the game...
He has somne risk, but who doesn't? I think when you look at first rd, you go for homeruns when you get a chance and this guy is just that..
the kid had been on the team for 32 days and had never played anything close to the level of FSU. He was their best player in a game where they held the FSU offense that put up 34 on miami 2 weeks earlier to 7 points and won.
Can you really not see how insane that is? This guy literally came out of nowhere for them.
Again, there is an endless list of 5 star recruits who go to major D1 programs and have 3-4 years with top shelf strength trainers and coaches who can't do what this guy did in 32 days.
Has not shown he can sustain success over time. He has not shown that he can respond to being the focal point of a scheme. Has not had multiple opportunities against top tier tackles (of different styles).
Doomed I say. This is the one and ONLY PICK we have in the draft. Doomed, doomed, doomed. ......or is it domed? Doomed , domed. MMMMMMM call me if and when we get another pick in this draft. Until then I'll keep calling JR and TC and Mark Ross and tell them how they destroyed this @*%$(& team in one pick..
Boy I feel better. I hope all you doomsters feel better now that you vented!
Absolutely there is an upside...he may put his freakish tools together and become an absolute monster.
From what I saw in actual games...he's got a long way to go before he does that and the history of this league is full of unrefined athletic freaks who never did a thing in the league.
I'd have been much more comfortable with Morgan, who when I watched play actually resembled a player ready to be an NFL DE for a long time.
I think it is fair to presume those guys would have been ahead of JPP on the board. I say this because Reese made it clear that its all about BPA and positions dont matter to the board. I dont think we would have taken Bradford, but it seems logical he would be on the board. Even if you take him off, your talking Trent Williams, Spiller, Mcclain, Haden, Graham as other possibilities.
Am I crazy? I dont see how JPP is 6 on a BPA board unless we were going to shock the world and pass on one of these elite high end players. That thought is scary.
With an amazing one sack thrown in there against an unbelievable offensive line...it's not like Christian Ponder spent the year running for his life or anything.
Store it to memory dude, feel free to call me out if I'm wrong here and I'll own every bit of it.
KWALL and I have a history there...I said no way Derrek Lee would ever hit 40 HR's and low and behold he did it. I got one back on him but for the life of me I can't remember what it was.
BBB, again, if we had him as BPA on our board.... Â
we asked other teams about a trade down but couldn't get fair value, we also knew that Tenn was going to take him next pick if we a. didn't or b. traded down, then what exactly did they do wrong?
A lot of people are assuming that we had offers to trade down, but maybe when Earl Thomas came off the board the pick before us, they vanished. Who knows.
What we know is this. The Giants had him ranked the best of the players that were left. They used the clock to explore a trade down but didn't feel they would get proper value in return.
I really don't understand what some of you guys expected to happen with McClain, Spiller, Thomas, etc... of the board.
I think there is no doubt these guys would have been in the giants top 6:
Berry, Suh, McCoy, Okung
Based on the reports I think it's safe to assume Spiller was there also.
I think it's easy to assume that Davis + Williams might not have been there due to character downgrades.
The Giants were rumored to be split on McClain.
That basically leaves Joe Haden and Sam Bradford. Based on the Giants valuation of DE's over CB's I think that's not a leap. Considering we have Eli its plausible to assume that Bradford was not even on our board. We can say "what if" all day if he had fallen, but quite simply it never happens when there is a bonafide #1 overall QB.
If the giants passed up on Trent Williams for JPP I would have been irate. However, it is possible that they did not have him in their top 6.
Bradford absolutely has to be on your board. You dont have to take him, but when your adamant position doesnt factor in, its crazy to me he would not be on your board.
I mean, you spend months and months preparing your draft board, you get to your pick, look at the board, and you take somebody that's not the BPA? Seems illogical to me.
over just one pick, can't wait to see this place lose its mind after today. So far it appears half the posters are sure this was perhaps the worst pick since Cedric Jones, while others are luke warm. This guy will be worked into a rotation and could be productive, maybe we should wait to see how he plays when he hits the field.
You're doing good work here. I fall somewhere between you and KWALL on this pick but I can certainly respect your skepticism in the face of the mob mentality here.
I'm just saying that in those circumstances, you make the pick, and trust your scouting and draft board that you put months of work into researching and preparing.
Somewhere in the middle on this pick. Hope to hell he turns out to be at least good. None of us will know for awhile. No use in going in circles all day. We'll see.
Simply an example of a guy who I'm sure was top on our board at the time of the pick not being the right pick, it means we made a piss poor fucking board.
against WVU he lived in the backfield. WVU made a lot of clutch plays by Brown and Noel to sidestep him, but I remember watching the game and wondering who the hell he was.
and was not too pumped with the pick but what the hell do I know....you move on and hope for the best....bottom line, I trust the Giants scouts and coaches and accept the fact that the draft is a risk no matter who you pick. It does make tonight very interesting and I can't wait to see how this plays out!!
Why not? I think there are players that went lower who are better football players. I think the guy picked with the next pick who plays the same exact position is a better football player.
Haha, if BBI thinks I hate this pick today, it would have been special if we picked JPP with McClain still on the board (and I truly thought McClain was going to be there at 15).
I'm not as big a Reese fan as I was 16 months ago...He invested almost $100 million on Rocky Bernard and Chris Canty and left us in a position where we were relying on CC Brown to start.
Still glad he's our GM, but his shine has worn off some in my eyes.
I can say that I hate the pick very much, he was the one player I wanted no part of, make fun of KWALL for being a one trick pony in his scouting critiques, and make fun of BBI for hailing him as some sort of draft expert.
I will also scream my head off for him in September 2010 and hope I am very wrong about him.
there is a decent number of BBI members who really didn't want McClain. I know of the 2 I would have picked Pierre-Paul, and have been pretty consistant with that opinion.
But since this site is for news, analysis, and discussion of the New York Football Giants, and this message board pertains to the discussion portion of that tagline...I am discussing my hatred of the New York Football Giants most recent acquisition and debating others who disagree with my stance.
skeptical about the pick. The guy has a lot to prove and doesn't have A) the popping measurables or B) the sustained record of on-field production that would make him what anyone could possibly term a slam dunk.
HOWEVER, as Britt says... this is why teams have draft boards. They evaluate and rate players and trust in their ability to do so. Reese took the best player on his board. He obviously differs greatly in opinion with those who say the guy is not going to be as good as Morgan or Graham or a litany of other 1st-rounders. And that's pretty much that.
with a year of seasoning and conditioning playing behind Tuck, Osi & Kiwi. Basically, every team had this guy rated as a first round talent and that is with limited football experience and coaching. The size, length and speed of this guy to go along with his natural pass rushing ability...I like it and eventually all the sceptics will come around.
I hate sticking up for BBB....but this is my problem.
It is hard to find a logical board that has JPP 6th without passing on a player who I think everyone would have been ecstatic about.
The important premise to my argument, however, relies on the fact that board is created irrespective of position. As I have said above, if that is the case, there is an interesting numbers game.
I dont think it is easy to create a top 6 above with JPP as #6 without putting a guy below him that seems questionable. This is particularly the case given that it seems Spiller was a definite part of the top 6 (above JPP).
Vernon Gholston looked like he would be a beast too. If BBI was here in the mid 90's KWALL would be telling us how terrified we should be of Mike Mamula playing us 2x a yr for the next decade.
is the football IQ and mental aspect. If he can grasp complex defensive schemes and reads I think he'll be fine...hopefully Tuck will take him under his wing.
I still trust Reese, Ross, TC and co. more than anyone on BBI and believe it's very possible that everyone will be very happy with the pick by 2012-13.
He was in the backfield a lot vs WV. Brown is a tough guy to sack. JPP put a lot of pressure on him that day. Consistent QB pressure IS production.
It isn't about tackles/sacks all of the time. He's a guy who consistently beat his man. And he had a game that will work in the NFL. I'm finished on this subject for now.
On to round 2. Give me a name. Who don't you like? That guy goes to the top of my list today!
GM of an NFL team, putting JPP 6th on his board. Doesn't he know that BBB, who posseses zero scouting ability and at best a rudimentary understanding of the process, had JPP ranked much lower? GET A NEW GM!
I dont want to be lied to. I want to trust the GM. When he says he was 6th, I want to believe it. However, in this case, him being 6 is scary in that had we passed on certain players, I would be irate/question the judgment of the pick. Reese/Ross love to talk about BPA. Well I think BPA is great, if the board is logically stacked. With JPP at 6, I struggle to see how the board is stacked.
Think about how many segments one team's draft board has though... Â
when they make a pick that makes sense. BBB is right when he says JPP is a boom or bust player. There were players still on the board that made more sense than JPP. Just my opinion.
I think he's more athlete than football player. If he turns into a football player, he can be very good. As much as I don't like the pick, it isn't impossible to turn into a good DE with his skillset, which gives me some hope.
Just not a gamble I wanted to take with the 15th pick in the draft since I don't anticipate picking this highly again for a while.
Crazy to think that some think he can be good in the 2010 NFL. If Mike Singletary or Dick Butkus were in today's league, they would struggle. Teams spread the field and go around you rather than spending first and second down trying to go through you. Fascinating to me how people who watch football every Sunday and like it enough to spend their time on websites devoted to the sport don't see that.
But his upside is very high and he could turn out to be a complete washout like Gholston, another athletic wonder who you were mesmerized by.
There is obviously a middle ground that is possible, but compared to someone like Derrick Morgan, who absolutely looks like at worst a 7-8 year starting DE in the league...JPP's ceiling is probably higher but his floor is absolutely lower in my eyes.
might end up being a 3-4 OLB. He was playing something resembling that role for Florida a decent amount in passing situations this year.
Maybe he's just too slow to make it in the NFL, but it's tough to come to grips with that after watching him be such a good college player over 4 years.
For me, it is incomprehensible that they would have passed on Bradford, Suh, Mccoy, Berry, Okung.
If we work under the premise that spiller was ahead of JPP (which is the word), then we would have passed on one of those guys. If not, I think a great argument can be made that passing on Trent Williams or Spiller is crazy. Mcclain maybe too.
are way out there but as valid as most post draft opinions.Meaning they don't mean squat because no one knows how or if this kid will develope-no one.You have a conviction on someone based on what you've seen and you go for it.Sometimes you're right sometimes you're not.It's a guessing game.What I saw on the film where he was hitting the sled was a guy with great quickness and great natural strength to go with it.He's a freak athletically-there's not a question about it and once he grows into his body and learns pro techniques he could be an awesome player.Anyone who comes with the "could be a bigger Dwight Freeney" tag....well you have to take notice. Is he a gamble-sure they ALL are.Like I said Reese and the scouts had the conviction on this guy who could be a super star-maybe an LT type game changer we'll have to see but as Eric and Matt have said and as the SB win showed if you have 3 great pass rushers and one can slot inside on passing downs it's awfully hard to deal with-you can't really game plan against 3 great pass rushers.As for the assertions that he's Gholsten or whomever-as George Young said I don't believe in reincarnation.JPP is gonna be JPP no matter how he turns out.No two people or players are alike.
As of now JPP is my guy-I'm rooting like hell for him AND pass rushers DO NOT grow on trees.If you see someone you think can change the tone of the game you go for it.Hopefully that's what they have in JPP.
has good coverage instincts - he just didn't run well. There are plenty of 3-4 OLBs who would do worse in coverage than Spikes. He had 6 picks in the last 2 years. He also looked decent rushing that passer this year from the outside. Maybe it won't translate, but he did the job well at the college level.
It's not like a team is going to use a top 10 pick on him.
the only reason he is considered boom or bust is his lack of big game college experience.Most boom or bust guys come with that tag because of attitude or personal problems...laziness,getting into trouble stuff like that.Those guys have been outstanding players but can't seem to either stay out of trouble or have bad habits like laziness or weight problems.JPP doesn't fit that mold.He's just inexperienced.Hey maybe he'll be the first player to get a running start and flip over an OT and sack the QB.... :)
where does Iupati enter the mix? He is not among the names I gave you and clearly would not be in the top 6.
I agree my opinion does not matter relative to Reese/Ross. But I dont want to be taken for a fool as a fan either. If he is not 6th on the board, dont say he is 6. I would rather temper the enthusiasm with honesty. If he is 6th, it makes me nervous and I am expressing that nervousness
Actually the reason he's considered boom or bust is because he has elite athletic ability but doesn't look anything like an NFL defensive end at the moment.
Osi Umenyiora was the same way and he worked out. It can work.
Because not every team in this league can afford to take one, look at StL Det and TB...they wished they could gamble but couldn't based on other needs. But Jints are already fully loaded at DE and addressed the safety and LB needs in FA. We do have doubts about Osi and Kiwi's contract expiring this yr. If things work out here, I am saying we will be burying the QBS 3-4 times a game on average..
Just dont say he is 6th on the board at all. Give every compliment known to man. Talk endlessly about his great play, numbers, measurables, etc. But if he is not 6th, why say it. If he is 6th, I am trying to determine how that is reasonable and or possible.
JPP and JT will create havoc for opponents for years to come.. Â
on this board love our throwing millions of dollars at the DL as well as premium picks as some sort of genius move.
We have 4 defensive ends now. Awesome. We still suck at linebacker and have 1 healthy safety that is starter quality.
I love a pass rush, I don't love continuing to throw premium resources at all costs toward it when there are glaring weaknesses in other areas that are ignored.
Spikes is probably going to a 3-4 team. And my tone wasn't intended as a shot at you, but rather the BBI mindset that a LB who can't crack 5 seconds in the 40 can work in a 4-3 the way the NFL game is played right now. It can't, move along.
he can easily shift between ILB and Def Line (like Kiwi did) ..may take a year for him to settle down but don't tag him strictly as a DE. and its only 1 round of draft far, you have at least 3-4 more good picks left..Sean Lee, a first round prospect is still on board as well as Sergio Kindle, Daryll Washingtona and Nate Allen..
I wanted Thomas at safety but this guy could be a great player so I'm happy they have him.And the reason he's considered boom or bust is strictly experience...many players coming out still have to gain strength for the pro game-especially defensive linemen..Strahan did too.Technique and strength.This guy looks to be gifted with great natural strength to go along with his other great natural abilities.He's not a carny act by any stretch of the imagination-he's a legit athlete and player because if he wasn't he'd have been a 4th or 5th rd gamble on greatness not the projected first rounder which he was..
Spikes is probably best suited to ILB in a 3-4.Instincts mean more than flat out speed-look at Zach Thomas.You're probably right that he wouldn't cut it at MLB but you never know.
I got KWALL on Reggie Bush...started a thread 8 games into his rookie year asking if he was a bust because he's not a running back and got toasted for it.
That was KILLING me remembering who he pwned me on and forgetting who I was correct about.
I think experience is the only drawback right now.As for coachability-they must know something none of us don't which is how it should be.He doesn't come with a bad rap as far as that's concerned.
where does Iupati enter the mix? He is not among the names I gave you and clearly would not be in the top 6.
I agree my opinion does not matter relative to Reese/Ross. But I dont want to be taken for a fool as a fan either. If he is not 6th on the board, dont say he is 6. I would rather temper the enthusiasm with honesty. If he is 6th, it makes me nervous and I am expressing that nervousness
Iupati is one player I had ahead of JPP, that's where he entered the mix.
I don't know why you feel lied to, but I also don't completely understand why it is important.
If Reese says 6th, I believe 6th. Not only do I have no reason to believe otherwise, it's simply not important enough for me to care.
when JPP gets his first sack this September. Go to Bull vision (USF.com) and see JPP's pass rushing abilities and speed rushing from the line and backfield..also available at youtube.
Yes I did because I don't think they are legit.I guess we'll see if his intelligence is any kind of factor.Are you saying he's not smart enough to learn a def.playbook? Where does it say he had trouble with that previously?
I live in Florida...if you can't pass the FCAT (which is why he was academically ineligible to play at UCF), you are not smart...I don't care if English is your 7th language.
Learning the schemes for 2 defensive positions when you really don't know how to play one yet is not something he's going to grasp IMO.
with his monster 3.6 yards per carry? Keep dreaming pal.
They finally got and won the SB when they reduced his role and made him the 3rd down back he always has been.
He catches the ball well and returns kicks ok. Tony Mandarich ended up being a starter on the OL for years in the NFL, Robert Gallery will be a 10 year starter by the time he retires. They are both busts too.
you think the Giants just invested millions for 4-5 years, and don't know if he can grasp what they're going to pay him all this dough to do? You serious?
he's a running back that went #2 overall in the draft that averaged 3.6 ypc in the "year he almost got them to the SB with his play". I know I know, ypc is meaningless right? It was all those gamebreaking plays in the passing game that made him worthwhile right?
If they redrafted the 2006 draft today Bush isn't a first round pick.
I'm saying it may reflect on his ability to learn 2 positions at once, which is what someone suggested we were going to ask him to do earlier in the thread.
my own personal board is irrelevant. The giants board is relevant. I am trying to piece together the Giants board 1-6. I dont see what the problem with that is. You obviously are unwilling to do so. That is fine. Others here have tried to. I think it is worthy of a discussion because it lends insight into who else the Giants would have considered taking at the 15 spot.
OK I don't think he'll be asked to learn two positions at once(did they mean LB too?).That's silly.He's a DE.Dwight Freeney wasn't asked to learn LB.Kiwi was an exception.
with his AA did it. With a 82 inch wingspan and that AA he will play in space next year... which will require LB instruction. Too many DE's in front of him not to be moved around.
I heard that...was under the impression that he was pretty much a 3rd and medium-long thing when the world knows they are going to pass. Tuck can play DT for stretches and hold his own. If I'm an opposing OC and I see JPP at tackle, I run right at him every single play.
is comical seeing you know more than the Giants... who haven't got the kid on the field in their defense yet. BTW who going to play and practice for Tuck and Kiwi if they get hurt?
They will teach him multiple spots; he will practice multiple spots. It's TC's MO.. clear as day.
What multiple spots does Osi play? How about Rocky Â
I think they'd maybe put him at DT on 3rd and long situations.He's also very strong to go with his quickness-I don't think he'd be in a position to be run at except maybe in a 3rd and say 15 deal.He'll have similar responsibility in those situations.Take an area and go.It's not rocket science.
Q: Do you think you will use him the way you used Tuck in his first year, playing all four positions?
A: We like that. That's what we look for. We look for guys who have versatility and can play inside and outside. Guys who can play special teams. We target that kind of thing so we expect him to play all over the place.
You have to stop saying that anyone who disagrees with the Reese selection is claiming superior knowledge to the Giants' scouting department. Every single year, some NFL team whiffs on a 1st round draft pick and when they do, rest assured that that team's scouting department knew more than any BBI poster. But that didn't prevent them from selecting the wrong player. It happens, and some BBI'ers are suggesting that it might have happened this year to the Giants. Maybe it didn't, but don't write as if it's impossible because it happens to an NFL team every year.
Wasn't crazy about the pick. Was hoping to trade down and get a D-Tackle or a Linebacker like many others here, but......
OSI's Measurables......6'-3" 280; 40 Yard Dash 4.78; 26 Bench Press Reps....didn't start at DE until Junior Year. On the field OSI was more productive but at a lower level of football. Can JPP produce near OSI's level? These guys seem like very similar players.
It felt like a risky pick at 15, but if there's a chance he can produce like OSI maybe it was worth it. I think there were safer choices, but JPP had the most upside.
I was extremely disappointed that we took Pierre-Paul. I would have preffered Dan Williams. We needed a great 1-Technique Tackle and he was the man to get in this draft. Robbins is gone and now we have a big need in that position. Pierre-Paul is a project. I feel strongly that you don't draft projects in the first round, especially when you have the 15th pick. Check out the bleacher report comment below. Bleacher Report - ( New Window )
has a really nice inside rid move, a spin move, and a I'm quicker than you off the snap move.
I don't think he's as raw as people say. He needs to get a little stronger, but to me.. that is about it. He may seem raw because his body type is so unusual for the position
site with the Sports Science guy. They had a bunch of prospects in for testing prior to the draft. In one of the tests they measured the off-the-snap striking force generated. Pierre-Paul generated more force than any of the players, including Suh. Since JPP doesn't really look the part (certainly compared to Suh) and has never been a big weight-room guy, they asked him how he developed such "natural" strength. He said he developed his strength by doing backflips!
Speaking of which, Pierre-Paul did 23 backflips in full pads in 30 seconds. The cumulative weight in "cyclic loading" (their term) exceeded the entire weight of the New Orleans Saints. An interesting listen.
I did say people saying he's either boom or bust are clueless. Put me down for that one. I said that months ago. And the Giants GM said the scouts do not say that about the player. It's just stupid. No other word for it, But we heard it about 50 times in the past 24 hours on BBI.
I also disagree with the "it's a measurables pick" when the measurables were not spectacular. In fact 4-5 DEs put up better workouts at the combine and several more at the pro days. It was about what he did on the football field and NOT a draft pick based on a once in a decade workout. It was a good workout but I'd wager most scouts expected even better numbers from him. The reason the team likes him isn't because of a very avg 30" vert or 7.2 3 cone. It's because he's extremely difficult to block.
And the "No production" group is just as ridiculous as the boom/bust guys. They say "only 6.5 sacks" and I say they're fools. In every game the guy was a handful to block. They counter with tackle/sack numbers in games like WV. Did you watch that game? Did they guy quotines the tackle numbers watch these games? No! The Giants did and, more importantly they know how to watch a game. They say he was impressive in every game. And you can include the WV games because he was beating his man, getting in the backfield, and chasing the QB around. He was disruptive in that game. Just like he was in every game according to the scouts who watched every snap.
After all of that no pick is a lock. I know that. So we'll see what happens.
But the reaction around here was very strange. They got a very good prospect at a premium position. Mayock, Casserly, Lombardi? They all liked it. So did Reese and the Giants. Apparently they loved him at #6.
Probably a similar mechanism which caused the... Â
he was abusing his man not just beating it. Unfortunately he was a little out of control at times. A lot of that has to do with coaching. He was juked by the QB a few times, but he was harrassing him big time.
The first thought that came to mind was that he reminded me of LT in that he had that same freakish, out of this world athletic abilty for his position. Obviously, he is inexperienced at this point. But based on the clips I saw, he has the potential to be a special player. This is why I think this is a great pick by the Giants, albeit one with a degree of risk involved.
exactly he is very athletic and JPP was out of control, but he was causing a lot of disruption. I am sure the Coach didn't want his QB juking that much for his life and not focusing on running the play.
And did I read about his arsenal of moves earlier in this thread? He tries to run around the tackle every single play. He looks like Osi year one. Osi was coached up and turned into a very good DE...would be much more comfortable taking that chance on a raw DE in round 2 and not with the 15th overall pick in a draft loaded with NFL talent with a couple reaches in front of us which left the board a little more open than expected.
He produces a lot of force in their little "hit the dummy, the computer tells you how much force you generate" thing. That is backed up in this clip in which you see several power moves including one vs. Rutgers that looked very nice. He always had a spin move in the Rutgers game, so it looks like while his main idea is the speed move, he may have some other ideas too.
Have to give it a chance, I guess.
I guess Osi is a goner now
Oh well, I'm not a professional, just a fan. What do I know?
I really hope Reese is right about this
And I think this means that we won't be re-signing Kiwi
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
More flash than substance.
I guess all I can say about this pick THAT I HATE is, "In Jerry We Trust."
Is this it for Osi?
I would have taken Williams from Tennessee or traded down....terrible, terrible pick by the Giants
A high #2 was always a BBI pipe dream.
I think once McLain and Thomas were gone, they couldn't move down (other than Eli, when have the Giants used all their clock?) got screwed.
All that said, Gil Brandt just said he had JPP in his top 10 list.
God, I hope Reese is right...this is a huge risk.
I really hope Reese is right about this
And I think this means that we won't be re-signing Kiwi
Definitely an interesting prospect. I didn't realize the size he has. He'll either be a huge impact player or this year's Ramses Barden!
Pass rushers win games.
KWALL will love it. And KWALL knows his shit.
I really hope this kid pans out, but I can't shake the flashbacks to Vernon Gholston, fuck.
This pick is going to set the Giants back for years. You cannot blow a first round pick like this!
Complete DISASTER!
I think there's a good chance Osi's gone before the close of business tomorrow. The question is, of course, what anyone is willing to bid for him: does he recover fully from the knee and return to form? The Giants are betting, it seems, that the answer is no, but then how much is he worth in trade?
One more thing: A month ago Gil Brandt called this pick. He is still the best when it comes to the draft. That is also confirmed once again. Let's hope he's right about Pierre-Paul's talent.
Next year, Kiwi or Osi are gone.
If you want to go back the Bowl, we need three top ends. Remember, Tuck kicks inside on rush downs.
And I still don't think they trade Osi this year. JPP may need some time to develop so I'm not sure the Giants are looking to throw him into a more vital role by trading Osi. Keep all four this year, then decide between Kiwi and Osi next offseason and put that guy with JPP and Tuck.
I can't even imagine trying to replace Osi or Kiwi with this guy. I hope I am wrong but this guy had one year with any competition.
jerry likes it. you can never have too many pass rushers. good enough for me.
Britt in VA is starting to sweat I think.
Where does Osi go?
Boom or bust player is a big gamble for Reese and Coughlin in a year where a poor performance could cost them their jobs.
oh sweet he can do backflips in the pregame. If we wanted to go DE we shouldve gotten Morgan.
I hate this pick, JPP will suck, and well be calling for Reeses head midseason
Osi or Kiwi will be leaving within one year. This is our future DE, and he will contribute right away on passing downs.
And, if we need a DE in 2011, we can draft one then.
For now, we still have no starting MLB, some aging OL players and question marks at DT.
Jason Pierre - Paul DE South Florida
TALENT BOARD
Round 1
STRENGTHS
Jason has remarkable athletic talent and size to be an excellent pass rusher at the next level for the team that drafts him. He is very quick off the line of scrimmage and seems to have extra gears that he can shift into when he is rushing the passer or tracking down a play from behind. He is quick, fast and has those long legs and long arms that give him an excellent advantage against any size offensive lineman. Jason's strength is his quickness and speed off the line. Add to that his size and you have an intimidation factor that opponents will have to deal with emotionally before they even step onto the field. He shows very good change of direction ability for a player with such long legs and has superior lateral agility to stretch running plays out to the sideline and not give ground. He is the type of player that, after he works out, is going to make defensive coordinators drool all over themselves as they sleep and dream of all the ways they can use this kid to get to the QB on third and long.
NEEDS TO IMPROVE
Because of his long legs and long arms, he will always struggle at the point of attack; however, you are not drafting Jason to stop the run. You are drafting Jason to rush the passer. His pass rushing skills are all based on his ability to get off the line quicker than his opponent. That will not do (all the time) at the next level. Jason has a long way to go to learn better pass rushing techniques to free himself up at the next level and become a consistent intimidating factor. A lot of his sacks and pressures (early in the season) came from inside stunts and not from freeing himself up and rushing from the outside until later in the season. This improvement shows me that Jason is coachable and improved during the season -- but he still has a long ways to go.
BOTTOM LINE
Jason could be a bigger version of Dwight Freeney (DE Colts). If he has the work ethic that Dwight has, the sky is the limit to his ability to become one of the best pass rushing defensive ends in the game. It's all up to him. Jason looks to me to have the athleticism to play as a OLB in a 3-4. I suspect at the combine, they will put him through those athletic drills to confirm my suspicions. If I'm correct, this kid will be able to play in any style of defense and I would think that would push him into the top ten on many teams' boards. He will get better against the run and at the point of attack with experience, but like I said, you are not drafting Jason to stop the run. There will be a lot of teams that will list this kid as a top ten talent even if he is not able to shine in LB drills. The truth is it will be very hard for me to disagree with that. He looks on film to be a good teammate and plays hard on every down; however, as we all know, sometimes that does not tell the whole story. Right now I'm watching on film the best pass rushing defensive end in this draft. The kid from Florida (Carlos Dunlap) is a more complete defensive end, but this kid is the fastest and quickest pure pass rushing 4-3 defensive end. I call him Jason (The Gazelle) Pierre-Paul because, on the field, he's as smooth and as fast and quick as a gazelle.
Drew Boylhart 1/10
JPP at 270 and will be 280 after one good meal.
But took the wind out of my sails, none the less.
The others were gone, so roll the dice!!! A qb can't pass while flat on their back!!!
2. You simply don't draft based on BPA or need; your draft on a combination of both, based on who is available.
3. We have quality depth at DE; he can provide depth and learn (get less raw).
1) The Season starts
2) He's traded
Pierre-Paul bound for stardom - ( New Window )
The Giants have been approached by teams. I know this has been the case for a while. That report was a PR masterpiece by Hanlon and company. Because it had a two fold effect.
1) It made it clear to teams that the Giants are listening to offers, but don't low ball them because it won't work, they aren't despirate to move him. If you want Osi, you need to come up with a 2nd rounder or some comperable value
2) If they can't get value, the Giants have covered themselves if Osi does cause a problem because the fans know that the Giants won't give Osi away, he's under contract, and he needs to shut up and play. So any problems from Osi will be spun as his problem, not the Giants.
The Giants paved the way for this pick with that leak to Dottino this afternoon.
Dumb comment. You don't understand the draft or how to build a team.
I hope he's right
article on JPP - ( New Window )
I'm more upset that Earl Thomas went at 14. But the Giants may still have taken Penis-Pal.
The wrap on JPP is he is NOT a dog; just inexperienced.
Strahan, Osi, Tuck, and Kiwi all on the field the same time.
Our DT's will be better than 2007 and our linebackers will be too. Our DE's still won't be. It's absolutely where the defense begins and ends.
Less time the secondary has to cover, less ease completing passes, no time to complete the big plays.
it's all pass rush
with the yin of the biggest upside comes the yang of a low floor.
My worry is that he's gonna be one dimensional and a liability against the run.
Could have been worse.....
This could turn out very well. We have to see the next few picks though. We still need a MLB. Glad that Reese didn't reach for 1.
JPP has the best first step found in a decade (as per many scouts)
A first step is the one critical differentiator in a pass rusher. It cannot be taught. It sets up all other moves and all other developments.
His floor is therefore fine (athlete, motor, critical skill) and his ceiling is great.
We waited five years for Eli. Three years for Tiki. Two years for Manningham. Two years for Jacobs. Three years for Corey Webster. Two years for Tuck. Years for Toomer. Two years for Osi. Years for Carson. Years for Diehl. Years for Seubert. We were willing to wait two years for KP
Guess what? It may well take two years to be a multiple playoff winning team again
We lose Osi or Kiwi next year. Tuck is oft hurt. And the position is oft injured.
Finally, if the guy stayed in school he would be a 1-5 pick next year. Since when do the Giants get a shot at a top 5 pick?
People in the know feel he's got tremendous upside..Risk? Who isn't in Rd 1?
Loving the BBI right now.
This is a bleh pick for me, but Im excited, because he does look very impressive athletically.
Reese: "We're not trading Osi. You don't have to ask that question." #nyg
This is a great pick.
Go get the mother fucking QB.
Reese claims the first 2 rounds must contribute in their rookie year. The Giants need to figure out a way to get him on the field.
I like the pick, as Ross said, "You can never have enough pass rushers"
Just opinions, some more qualified than others but opinions all the same. Ask Tom Brady, Marques Colston, and a list of countless others.
"Lacks instincts, football intelligence, and production doesn't match ability."
That's the same shit we read about Gholston to the T.
This is what all the JPP skeptics are worried about. I have a real problem with guys from smaller schools who fail to light it up in all the statistical categories, but are all of the sudden supposed to do it in the NFL because of their athleticism.
He really worries me.
I hope Nunn is an excellent teacher.
This was a bad pick by Reese and Co. They must have tunnel vision
3 minutes ago via txt
NotoriousOHM More Reese: "Length-wise he is similar to Jevon Kearse. He does have a body-type like Kearse. This was an easy pick for us." #NYG
Hmmmmm.
Osi must be gone. 6 NCAA I-AA sacks?? No production. This is an Al Davis pick.
And the Giants again, with the "we're not trading Osi" has put all issues back on him, if any arise.
He could turn into the best pass rusher in the league but could be a major bust - gotta swing for the fences when you have that potential. He's raw so having Osi, Kiwi and Tuck take the pressure off him a bit. A few years in an NFL weight room is going to really turn him into a superfreak
It's not about JPP the player. It's about the position he plays and the 3 very good DE players already on the Giants. That's what makes it a questionable pick.
Still, I had the Giants drafting him in my last mock (4-17), and I wrote this about him:
Camp cant come fast enough...
In Reese we trust, but this is a head scratcher.
I loved hearing Boom or Bust for the first time of the night.
Look, I dont know JPP from OPP. Im not a scout. But the Giants know how to pick pass rushers. Everyone says you need to be able to protect your QB and hit their QB to win. We won a super bowl on that theory. But our pass rush failed big time last year. We took a shot on greatness here. Decent chance he's at least going to be a guy in a Tuck type role from the SB run. Some chance that he is the next great pass rushing DE. We now have a potential 4 Aces package again, from Tuck, Osi, Kiwi, JPP, Sintim and some others.
I said on the radio show...you don't take a small, run-and-hit LB in the first round, unless he was an impact player. And Spoon wasn't.
The impact of this pick will be felt. Hope they got it right.
Reese and company took a shot at a great prospect with great measurables. This will be a red-shirt year, its about the future.
JPP will hit the weight room; he will learn from some of the best in the business. In 2011 forward he could be awesome.
Good DTs can be had in round 2, 3 in this draft. Same for LBs.
Osi could still be traded for a 2.
I'm getting tired of listening to Osi complain.
I don' t know anything about JPP, but I trust Reese.
He looked happy to be a Giants. Be happy for him.
I'm looking forward to seeing some of you guys at the Lions game.
Thickones? Yup game plan around a stud DE.
my only recent track record is a couple of years ago the eagles picked a DE, looked bulked up to me, I said draft day was a workout warrior and thats how it turned out.
in contrast to superfical impression I got of this player, Jean Pierre Paul. --practically the name of a pope FWIW btw
Can I tell you how many shitty players BBIers said were going to be great?
And how many very good players BBIers said were going to be shitty?
Me included. The truth is - we don't know.
That's why I don't understand how people can get too excited or too happy with this. It's fun. Take it for what it is, but how can you tell if a player is going to be great or suck?
2007 - reached for need
2008 - value/need was there
2009 - value/need was there
2010 - Risk/Reward pick
I like to bolster the lines, but, I thought here they would go DT. But, I see their plan now. In rd 2 may go DT or LB. Have to wait and see.
Eric, I'm surprised that you're not more upset that we passed on Dan Williams. He was your hope for us. Do the Pats take him now?
JPP was one of the guys mentioned all week and yet many here act like we drafted Tim Carter Thomas Lewis the II...
A - "We value good players"
Basically it's a pick intended to learn from our DE trio this year in order to be a stud going forward.
But at 15 I hate it.
Osi, Kiwi, JPP -- where has the emphasis on stopping the run gone?
I wonder where Earl Thomas was on the Giants' board.
JPP is a pure, albeit inexperienced, pass rusher.
Our pass defense was shredded last year, due in large part to a lack of a pass rush. This guy is a reasonable approach to address that problem.
If we had drafted Morgan who provided nothing dynamic as a pass rusher, the pass defense was still faced witha huge problem.
OK with the pick. Hed oculd be coached into a pass rusher who actually scares opposing defenses. We really need someone to do that.
It never fails to amaze me. The knee-jerk reactions here on BBi are astounding.
We will get gashed
A few comments:
His production doesn't match his ability? That's crap. That's somebody looking at 6.5 sacks and saying it isn't enough for a pass rusher. He was very productive. A lot of QB pressure and a lot of trouble for opposing OTs.
This pick is about what he brings to the NFL. Not some sacks in college. He's extremely explosive and hard working. Long arms with the great first step. Built to play 4-3 DE and get to the QB.
If he went back to college he would have had a 12 sack season and possibly the #1 overall pick next year.
We just got a player who may be the best player in this draft. Without question, he would have been one of the best next year. We get him now. We get an extra year with him. At 15, he'll be locked up for 5 yrs at $18-$19 million. That's a bargain.
He'll come in and produce as a rookie. It may be only as a situational pass rusher but he'll come in and give some linemen fits with his speed and explosion. He'll get to the QB and that is still the best way to defend the pass. He'll make the entire defense better.
Great pick by NYG.
IMO all that makes Kiwi a bad pick in hindsight and foresight.
Lindy's Draft Guide report snippet:
Whatever.
Like people have said above, this should put all the Osi trade talk to bed, and now Osi's gotta put up or shut up. There's still 6 picks left in a DEEP draft to fill some other spots. I think most of us understand that LB is not the most critical position on a Giants defense.
The secondary, on paper, is 10 times better than it was the last couple of years, and with some more talent to rush the QB, this defense has a chance to rebound.
I suspect that DT and LB will be addressed tomorrow night.
JPP looks sick in the all the clips of him. He'll be situational and rotation player this year as he gains experience. I'm not worried, we have to rebuild our d-line to the power-house it was in '07 and this might put it back over the top.
For all the people nay-saying right now, are going to be cheering like mad when he gets his first sack in the pre-season. Happens every year.
Spoon is still out there...what does that say?
Maybe it's not just the Giants?
Its going to be at least 3 years before this guy contributes consistently, if at all.
Was he our guy all along and then Morgan taken the very next pick... Hey JPP is a Giant just shows how much I know he
was the one pick that bothered me...
He can help our pass rush from the get go.. even if its just
situational .
Paul wont play for a cpl season probably. Its like taking a raw QB.
Reese is an excellent personnel guy and the Giants have one of the better coaching staffs in the league. If anyone can unlock his full potential, it's the Giants.
3 playtes of hayte for just 1 round in a day..
I'm going to trust Reese but as far as I'm concerened our defense didn't improve with this pick. Not this year anyway.
If he played 3-5 more games and had a few more sacks the floor is raised?
If he went back to college he would have produced and your talking about a top 5 pick next year.
He's extremely explosive off the edge and a high motor/high effort guy. The floor is very high. At the very least he gives you edge pressure on the QB. And that has a lot of value.
Also, you don't draft for next season - you draft for a few years down the road.
I'm expecting Osi to have a great year as a way to say f'you to the giants.
He will be able to slide inside in the NFL on 3rd down.
I don't subscribe to the "I trust in Reese" mantra, but the JPP pick is not without merit.
Were Tuck, Osi, and Kiwi that productivce last year? Not so much.
I remember game after game last year when we had to send extra players to generate pass rush, players a weak pass defense couldn't afford to send.
The possibility does exist that they never do. I trust Jerry Reese 100%, but I have a "glass half empty" view of the pick. It's a risky pick.
JPP is the new LT - ( New Window )
But on the whole, I don't bother getting upset about picks anymore. The Coughlin/Reese regime has done well in the draft. I saw a few USF games this year, but I'm no expert. The guy had a 1st round grade. He's extremely athletic and he should be a fun guy to watch.
Nah, let's just trot out the same crap we 've put on the field the last few years....
And what the hell are the Patriots doing? Signing Holt and Patten, and letting a guy like Bryant slip through their hands? With Moss out there, could have the oldest trio of wideouts in the NFL......what pisses me off, is Dallas gets Bryant!
When you pick a player where you already have 3 starting caliber players for 2 positions, that's a luxury pick. That's a pick a powerhouse with no holes makes. Do we have that luxury? How are our LBs? How is our offensive line? How are our DTs? Do we have the luxury to get a player who admittedly will only come in relief time?
I love drafting the best value regardless of position - the Giants entire franchise was made in 1981 when we were loaded already ay LB, but drafted an OLB named Lawrence Taylor b/c he was the best player in the draft
Someone above compared this pick to William Joseph...WTF? This is the anti-Joseph pick - that was a reach based on need, total opposite of this pick
How much was MArk Anderson in CHI supposed to play in year 1 with the talent they had in front of him? As a situational pass rusher Anderson delivered 12 sacks as a rookie.
This guy will have an immediate impact. He will not sit on the bench especially on 3rd down.
Since that peak, Strahan has retired and Tuck, Kiwi, and Osi have all struggled with injuries. The team was hands down the best in the NFL during most of the 2008 season, then fell apart at the end as the pass rush melted down. In 2009 it never got going and the defense was historically bad.
But, the three they had last year - didn't get it done.
The next player would be the first.
I ask this because he looked to get manhandled at time in the few clips I have seen.
Another thing people are forgetting - in their time together as teammates, Osi, Tuck and Kiwi have never all been healthy for an entire season together. Someone's always getting hurt. Pierre-Paul will get his opportunities.
And I just watched some of his film for the first time - how can you not love the explosiveness? Did you see how quick this guy is? Osi's the best we have in that department, and JPP looks to have him beat.
everyone that I wanted was off the board, and,
the people that have true insight on this board are generally supportive, so....
I hope he is the next best thing.
Somewhere Miss Big Blue is crying that the younger generation has overtaken her.
http://blogs.nfl.com/2010/04/22/meet-a-true-blue-giants-superfan/ - ( New Window )
And why all the carping about Dan Williams?? If college production is what you hunger for, why pick a guy who was invisible for most of his collegiate career?
B. Graham 10 yd 1.60
D. Morgan 10 yd 1.61
JPP 10 yd 1.65
All of these saying Kiwi might be gone next year, do you all think we got good value for him? Kiwi has been a backup and even a linebacker. Would you all be happy if JPP serves the same purpose for us? Is that 1st round pick value?
"um.. I likedededed itt with my visit to these people. I'm nerve wrecking because this day finally come."
*sigh*
Crap.
That being said, I am OK with the pick and the above statement is in no way a negative point to his on the field potential.
We drafted an athlete, not a football player. Lets hope the coaches can turn him into a football player
Link - ( New Window )
Hoping for an OG in the 2nd.
NOW, I'm hatin' not being able to watch the 2nd round tonight.
Pierre-Paul isn't a total shocker, and I haven't read through the threads yet but I imagine it's a polarizing pick. I'm excited. Seems like a high ceiling type, honestly who the fuck knows with these prospects, I basically trust Reese and Coughlin. Hope he turns out to be a stud.
They moved Tuck inside and went with 2 other DE's- and got big time pressure. They can now do the same here. Simply move Tuck and Canty inside on passing downs, stick JPP and Kiwi on the outside to just go get the passer. Add in that Sintim will also be part of that pass-rush package from the LB slot, and the pass rush will be back in order.
I still think this is the end of Osi, no matter what the FO says. The Dolphins didn't make a point of getting a 2nd round pick for no reason. After losing Jason Taylor, they NEED an outside pass rusher, and to be honest, there won't be anything near Osi available at 40 for the Phins. They'll make the deal.
The Giants are likely to actually look at the OL in the 2nd round- interior OL. If they get the second pick, assume they will grab a LB.
This was a big pick because the defensive scheme is about pressure, not about making tackles.
I hate the term "Upside"
I can't even finish the post.......
Pierre this year.
Not sure I'm a fan of this kid.
that's exactly why I think they'll go for a DE. Think about it. The Giants could have pretty much ended the Osi vs. Kiwi thing by trading Osi a month or so ago when teams, including San Diego, approached them and the Giants weren't interested in dealing Osi. Also, as much as Osi had been grumbling a bit, you have not heard one peep out of the Giants disparaging Osi, using the customary unnamed sources, which has been a pattern of the team the past few years when someone is on the outs (Shockey, Plax, and Toomer to name a few).
So the Giants interest for 2010 is to keep the group together. Right now the only guy not returning from the DL group last year is Robbins, who was cooked anyway, and Waufle who they canned. However, looking towards 2011, you are going to have to make a decision on how much money you really want to spend on your DL. They have already given out big money to Tuck, Osi, and Canty. Bernard is also making decent money as well. Kiwi is nearing the end of his rookie contract and players generally know that you make your biggest financial splash in your second deal.
Remember Jacobs' statement after he signed his extension once he was Franchised?
Quote:
"You get (as much money as) you can get while you're young," Jacobs said. "And when your first two contracts are over with ... if you're in good enough shape and your body is good enough and holding up well enough, you can go and be a starter and do all those things. If not, you lower your standards and you play special teams and do stuff like short yardage and goal line and things like that."
Kiwi is entering stage 2, when he's expecting to make his money. So the Giants have to make a decision because you cannot support 3 DEs at Stage 2 of their contract structures (with Tuck and Osi in stage 2). It doesn't make financial sense.
So the smart play is to draft a DE now and get him in the system, have him learn from the group in place and utilize him in some roles as the season moves along. You'll have a first round talent at the rookie stage of his contract and be able to slot him into the mix in 2011, with Tuck and the winner of Osi vs. Kiwi.
That's why I think that they go DE in the first or second round.
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2009/02/brandon_jacobs_decided_to_take.html
The smart play all along was to go DE, whether it was JPP or Morgan.
The wisdom of this JPP pick seems to be that Osi or Kiwi will be gone next year. That may well be true, and if that's the case, there certainly is a lot of logic behind grabbing JPP. But you have to ask why that has to be the case. Osi and Kiwi are both relatively valuable assets and we're evidently going to lose one of them for nothing or for less than they're worth. That's what happens when you "can never have enough pass rushers" that all play the same position.
You shouldn't have to spend high draft picks on guys at the same position every couple of years when those guys actually pan out. We hit on all of our picks, but we have to keep refreshing them because we can't keep our guys. Because you can have too many pass rushers if they play the same position.
- Passes the eyeball test
- Passes the name test, meaning his name just kind of sounds like a future star player.
Again, these things don't matter, but they go through everyone's mind I'm sure. Everyone does the name test.
Not my choice, but it's hard not to like the potential.
BBI 2010 Draft Review - ( New Window )
When Kiwi was drafted, Strahan was making big money (but was year to year), Osi was on his big money extension and Tuck was on his rookie deal.
All that has happened now is that you've got Tuck and Osi both on their big money extensions and Kiwi on his rookie deal. JPP now slots in there with the expectation that he'll be fully in the rotation in 2011 (I think that generally he'll be used in obvious pass rush situations and little else in 2010).
But the Giants are now properly preparing for life without either Osi or Kiwi. Considering age, my guess is that the Giants will shop Osi and try to keep Kiwi around.
But if you wonder why it makes sense to do it this way, look at the cost for pass rushing DEs on the open market. Peppers got a ton of money from Chicago, Jared Allen required a huge money deal plus cost a lot in terms of picks to get him. If the Giants defense is based upon athletic DEs who can rush the passer, and Tuck does his damage shifting to DT on pass rush downs, they need 3 guys. If you know that Osi or Kiwi will have to go in 2011, you make this pick now (rated in the top 10 in talent) and slot him in at the cost of his rookie money. This is the smart move and the defense needs to be replenished.
As to Kiwi being a bad pick, he's done a good job here. He served as a starter in 2006 and 2008 when injuries decimated the line, was athletic enough to start as a linebacker in 2007, and beat out Osi as the starter late this year. For all anyone knows, he might be the starter in 2010, too. At the very least, the pick has had good value, and none of us know what the future holds, especially with the CBA up in the air.
Quietly climbing the charts-After one season at South Florida, Pierre-Paul has emerged as a first-round pick - ( New Window )
I wouldn't get worked up about JPP vs. Morgan. Maybe we win, maybe we lose. I remember a lot of people liking DeWayne White more than Osi (myself included). The Giants won that battle.
We can have too many pass rushers with Tuck, Osi, and Kiwi on the team. We can have too many CBs with Thomas, Ross, and Webster on the team. WR with Nicks, Smith, Manningham. And obviously QB with Manning.
Another DE on the team means either Osi/Kiwi are gone or a first-rounder doesn't get on the field as much as he should. And Nicks, Phillips etc. prove that first rounders can and do contribute right away if there's room for them on the field. I hope JPP works out, he looks like a great talent. But watching Osi or Kiwi, both in their 20s and still very good, depart, would suck.
PRD: Reese had a choice. Morgan is the safe pick, JPP is the upside pick. Time will tell.
I like the pick. First half of round 1, you go big 4-QB,DE,CB,or OT.
Like it or not, the Giants clearly put a premium on pass-rushing DEs over other positions on defense. Those guys don't grow on trees, and to sign one away from someone else costs big, big bucks.
Back then, I didn't have a problem with them drafting a DE, just with them doing it with their first pick, especially because the LB corp sucked (which it still does).
I still stand by a 1st round pick not being good if you don't keep the guy after his rookie year, and I don't think they do that now. We'll see. But I know that Kiwi has not been all that great. He certainly wasn't better than Osi when he took over the starting job. At least when he lined up on the edge like they had Osi do 100% of the time.
JonC : 11:01 pm
Marc Ross said he was rated #6 on their overall board.
That is value, amigos.
Paul in a USF piece - ( New Window )
Bad year to need a MIKE.
Someone posted a clips pack of him and he kept talking about how he didn't want to play football...I sure hopes he wants to play now.
Osi has 3 years on his deal left. The Giants will give him this season to prove his worth.
Kiwi is the odd man out here. The Giants will let him walk.
Now it's a question of trusting the scouting department.
Were you guys living under a rock in 2007?
LOVE this pick!
2) Osi or Kiwi won't be on the team past next year... if that long;
3) They could care less about what future pundits will say about passing up Morgan. But whether they care or not... the comparison will always be made... and if JP-P busts and Morgan is All-Pro... they will eat this draft for many years.
He's as raw as a baby's bottom.
We will see.
born in Haiti, didn't play ball until his Sr. year in high school, started at one JC, moved to Kansas of all places for another JC, taken to the hospital via ambulance and returned in time to reenter a game, reported late to USF b/c he had to "finish online classes," extremely poor family, nothing to lose
total boom or bust. can't find interview on giants.com, was it taken down? he's ESL? hopefully he can improve the image of haitian NFLers tarnished by Willy Joe. i don't think we ever saw Joseph do many backflips.
Balls to the walls
there's still 800 more days to the draft and there's still the post-draft FA scrapheap.
then again, I'm not a walking encyclopedia of college football, most likely 90% of the people posting here aren't either.
half of you want to run Osi out of town, but also don't seem to want to replace him. this kid might not be able to play the run to save his life in the NFL, then again... neither can Osi
Again, I think they just bet it all on their horse in rd1 as this draft is so fuckin deep
With him gone so early, I didn't know what to expect. I may be in the minority, but I didn't like the idea of Spiller because I viewed RB as one of the few areas that really didn't need to be addressed on day 1 or day two this year. The others being QB, WR, DE, P, and PK (solely because I wouldn't spend a pick in any of those rounds on a kicker).
Notice, I include DE in there. I think we might have drafted the best player available at that pick, which in some years is perfectly OK. However, this year, we have immediate needs. I think a pick at this spot, this year, should have been a guy who will come in and start from day one. Given we already have 3 very good to excellent DEs and decent depth in Tollefson, I think this is a luxury pick we may not really be able to afford.
If their track record of being right holds up, they likely got a hell of a player at an incredibly important position. They also hedged against Osi and/or Kiwi leaving...while adding a pass rusher off the bench almost immediately.
Time will tell, but the logic behind the pick was sound.
This is an outstanding pick.
But bullspit to his statements that Osi is "not" available. For the right offer, he's gone.
I'm glad Reese didn't do anything stupid in trading up for a LB..And like I said before, it's also insurance if Osi busts out and Kiwi walks after the season. There is no guarantee we will have either one of them after the season..
Great vision by Reese and the FO..This guy and Tuck can be a nightmare for years to come!
CRAP SHOOT BOYS,,,,
I thought KWALL had a great point earlier in the thread that was glossed over and that's how financially it makes sense to keep feeding the DE position with 'cheap labor' (read: guys who are still playing on their rookie contract). Someone asked earlier why can't we just keep Tuck, Osi, and Kiwi. Evidentally they don't understand how difficult it is to keep TWO very good, young starting Pro Bowl caliber DEs on your roster...much less THREE. Either Kiwi (IMO most likely) or Osi will be gone next off-season. This move was in preparation for that.
NOT TO MENTION, how much sense it makes to take the player you believe will have the most impact on your team over the course of a CAREER...not just next year. Some of you are showing an alarming lack of how to build a team.
Anyway...this is not the only pick in a deep draft we have. Looking forward to tomorrow!
Honest question. I know about the quick first step and his good 40 and the backflips... but I'm surprised that doesn't translate to a good vertical, 3 cone, shuttle, bench, etc. (i.e., some of the more traditional barometers of football athleticism).
Ten Yard Toorents - ( New Window )
A player with arms that long simply is not going to have high bench numbers. Did you see that he actually slipped and almost fell while doing the three cone ??
What happens on the field is what matters MOST to scouts.
with Williams sitting there? shit
NOBODY
but hey, we gte a guy with unlimited upside that going come in in our rotations.. great
LUXURY pick
if this team was set, I would say COOL
but we are not
how does this kid make the defense better?
we are SOFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
There are other rounds where ILB can be addressed. #15 would have been a terrible spot to do it and they just so happened to pick up the #6 overall player on their board who they believe has the most upside of any prospect in the draft. The choice was obvious for the front office.
and I hated the Rocky Bernard signing
tell me how this kid will help the defense this year?
its not, this Defense is cery questionable.. Fewell is questionable, as is TC's DC hires, except Spags
I am nervous , that all
and don't tell me williams went @ 26, thats means jack, that just means some teams after us didn't need a DT
this is a LUXURY pick for the Ginats at this time
Hope it works out
but this doesn't help us in 2010 stop the run
and Tuck is better outside
so now we have to shift Tuck inside to make this pick make sense?
Rocky, Canty, Barry, and Alford coming back...
I like the Middle...
More so when you have Osi, Kiwi, Tuck, Tolly and now JPP at DE....
Whats not to like...?
Bernard, I hated that signing from day one
Obviously, Oakland fucked our draft, Reese tried to trade down, couldn't then took his BPA
The rotation is great...
Sure Alford is coming off a knee...
Its still a great rotation...
But this ....
YOU DO NOT SELECT BOOM OR BUST PICKS IN THE 1ST ROUND.
This pick wreaks of cockiness.
1. He has 0 production.
2. Its the 15th pick. Guys like this our 2nd rounders. If he gets picked by someone else so be it. Go get Iupati.
3. He's not going to see the field. Because of rawness and because of who is ahead of him.
4. Our best pass rushers on a good day wont get to Peyton Manning. Or Drew Brees. A smart CB/S in Earl Thomas would have been huge for us and would not have cost alot to move up 1 spot.I think Earl Thomas will be just as good or better than Bob Sanders.
5.You have too many pass rushers when your making them switch positions in order to get them on the field not to mention the kind of money we have sunk into the D line for backups.
That said I'll support the kid but think it was a wasted pick.
The Giants obviously didn't feel like there was a Linebacker with a similar talent level, so they made the smart move based on their draft board. You don't pass on a guy who you think has All Pro potential just because he plays at a position that we don't have a current hole at.
JPP is a "swing for the fences", but that's not a bad idea at 15, is it?
He will be fun to watch...
Its a pick like JPP that makes football fun...
The Giants have the best D-line in football right now...
The best part? I bet Reese makes it even better in the next two rounds...
Relax...
JPP is a "swing for the fences", but that's not a bad idea at 15, is it
Sure there were other players at positions of need who may have had the higher floors and more immediate impact, but none of them has the ceiling or potential impact that JPP provides. In the NFL Draft it's all about finding the perfect balance between pure talent and need. And I would much rather my team miss by taking talent than miss by taking need.
His two risks were Manningham and Bradshaw and both have been fine.
We should be confident in the Giants assessment that JPPs aptitude and work ethic will allow him to capitalize on his ability.
This is pretty much the Kiwi pick. A DE when we don't really need one, at least not in the first round. We all know how that worked out. In time, we will enjoy this pick.
Weaknesses: Not a real instinctive player. Better when he can just be unleashed and told to go make plays. Not a real disciplined player. Needs to improve pass rush moves and cut block awareness. Needs to finish all his plays, not just be a part time player.
Summary: Pierre-Paul is a freak of an athlete and will be a top 25 pick in the 2010 NFL draft. He is still raw in a couple of areas of his game, but he has the potential to be one of the best defensive ends in the NFL. He has great length, speed, quickness and flexibility. He has an innate ability to find gaps in the blocking scheme and by using his flexibility and quickness to penetrate those gaps to make plays. Extremely explosive first step and when his only job is to pin his ears back and rush the quarterback, he is at his best. He can dip his shoulder off the ball and barely gives the blocker any space to punch. Has a great closing burst and works to knock the ball out on contact. Plays with strong hands as a pass rusher and in the run game. Needs to improve strength to hold the double team run block, but when he comes off the ball low, he can control the blocker, shed with force and make a tackle on the ball carrier. Very good in space and covers a lot of ground in very little time. Has good jumping ability and alters a lot of throws with his length. Plays with passion and makes a lot of big plays. Needs to be more consistent and go hard all the time. Pierre-Paul has only played one season of big time college football, so he is still raw and has a lot of potential for growth. Overall, whatever team drafts Pierre-Paul will be getting a rare, explosive athlete with the ability to become a game changing pass rusher, but he is very raw and needs a lot of work so there is some real risk involved in using a high pick on him. He is a definite 1st round pick, in our eyes, but he needs to go to a team whose DL coach is extremely good at teaching the fundamentals as JPP needs the most work in this area if he is ever going to become the player he has the talent to be.
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At first, I was like, "Meh", but the more I read about him the more I like it. The past two seasons the Giants have lacked a severe pass-rush, and health, to the DL. Granted the primary problem, in my view, were the DT's health, but the DE's also weren't consistent. Adding a presence like JPP will help out a lot. Still look for them to add a MLB and DT in Rounds 2 and 3.
and don't forget we all heard the pre-draft rumors that Reese liked HB
I was very happy with Nicks
Hope I can learn to love this kid
Would you rather have a 30% chance at winning $10 or a 50% chance at winning $5? Simple math tells us that a 30% chance at $10 is the better gamble despite having a higher "miss rate". I feel like the Giants followed that logic and will benefit from it in the long run.
JPP is a truly special athlete, a poster earlier in this thread or in another thread said that JPP reminded them of a combination of Osi and Kiwi. I agree with that, like Reese mentions JPP has both the very rangy wingspan of Kiwi and the powerful and quick explosive athleticism of Osi. Like Reese says, it's very rare to find a player who has both these qualities.
It's up to him and our coaches to get him to reach his potential, but holy crap is there potential. I fully believe the Giants when they say that JPP was the player they considered had the highest ceiling in this draft. He might be slightly less likely to pan out because of his relative inexperience, but he has "Superstar DE" potential. And outside of the "Franchise QB" and possibly the "Monster LT", the "Superstar DE" is the most prized player in the game.
What I like about the pick is - as baadbill wrote a few times - you've got to believe the Giants are stoked about a guy if they draft a player who ISN'T at a position of need. It means they think he's a monster BPA. And I'm stoked because they picked him with Derrick Morgan still on the board. They must have thought long and hard about that because Morgan will be a very very good NFL DE, and that opinion was pretty much confirmed by the Titans grabbing Morgan a split second after the Giants nabbed JPP.
I like the idea of swinging for the fences at 15. With any luck and a reasonable return to form we won't be picking that early for the remainder of Eli's tenure. With JPP's rapid and meteoric ascent this past year, who knows but he could easily have been 2011's version of Ndamukong Suh if he stuck around for his senior season - the top DL off the board.
In 3 years, he could be the best DE in the NFL (certainly the best pass-rushing DE), and that's worth a shot, no? I would've preferred Morgan based on what I've seen, but JR trusted Ross and his team of scouts, and that's what the better GMs should do IMO.
Link - ( New Window )
Maybe I'm just more conservative, I would have taken a "safer" player.(D. williams or M. Pouncey) With that being said, I trust Reese and Co. They gambled on greatness and I hope we all win.
If he only has played 7 games against top level folk in college we really have no clue what we have in him...either way good or bad. He could be LT and Mike S. roled into one or he could end up being a gigantic waste of the 15th pick. Its said he was value at 15....but how do you determine value when he has no meat on his resume?
Sorry, not buying it.
If you draft this guy under the notion that he's some sort of raw freak who just needs to be coached and has all this athletic ability then yes, you need to have a good combine/workout at the very least to back that up.
If you were going on a long college career of elite production, then I would minimize the combine/workouts. But when you're essentially saying that you drafted the guy because he has off the charts athleticism.... I want to see a little more than a 30.5" vertical and 19 reps on the bench at 266 lbs.
Sorry but this pick bothers me more than any under Reese. A top 15 pick spent on a guy from a smaller school, with little production and not even eye popping measurables.
W...T...F
Naturally, if the other guy has a lot of upside you do this the other way around.
But I believe we decided his upside was solid, but ordinary.
Giants track record is pretty good with raw DEs, although it takes a time investment.
Where we have failed is with guys with reps coming from big programs.
The Giants were picking at #15 and they added a player who could realistically be an impact player at the game's 2nd most important position. This is a tremendously exciting selection.
You Down With JPP? Yeah You Know Me!
sorry, had to do it!
Paulie, put a sock in it.
PAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUL
Is this to mean that said player is catagorically ever going to be just a good pro. That he will either become LT or he'll be Cedric Jones?
Now, here's why I really love the pick. What's been really missing on our D line since 2007? I think it's the Strahan like pressence. This kid has the impact (hit wise) that I didn't see from McClain. He just uncoils on you. Watch that Sports Science video on him. It's sick. I think this kid's going to be a force.
You can never have enough pass rushers. We were stacked at DE when we took Kiwi, too.
Bottom line, he was the BPA on our board, and the value probably wasn't there to trade down. Probably a no brainer for Jerry at that point.
VCU is the biggest school in VA. I'm gonna suggest that they probably do not have the best football players in the State.
Which of Tampa Bay's Defensive Linemen can we use as an indicator of how Nunn can turn raw talent into success on the football field?
SteveMD
Reasoning was we wanted the best players on the field as much as possible. IE you can't get 4 good DEs on the field at the same time.
We are back to the same situation. Amazing how quickly people forget. Stop trying to justify a poor pick. The Giants blew this one.
If JPP turns out to be a great player, it means Osi / Kiwi are no longer with the G-Men. Therefore, either this first round pick was a waste or previous 2nd/1st rounder were a waste.
You draft players to last their careers on your team, especially 1st/2nd rounders. Not to last their rookie contracts and walk away.
I pulled a whole lotta flags that season, considered the pro's but figured that at 162.8lbs, 5'9.75" with a solid but unspectacular 5.68 - 40 and a 6" vertical.
Scouting Report on JPP - ( New Window )
I think its a great pick and he has all the potential to be a great football player...
Add in the fact that we picked up another pass rusher and I'm okay with it. They're already possibly preparing Boley to call the plays so Goff only has to perform.
There were still alot of good players on the board when we took JPP.
Thats a crock.
You in fact nearly guaranteed that the pick would be a linebacker.
So why should we trust your judgment now?
It sounds like this is a football player who is also a physical freak, great.
Just a guess that they had worries about the upside for Beluga and did not really see equal value for the DTs.
So I am fine with this. Today will be interesting.
This guy could start on the opposite side from Osi, with Tuck roaming the line and Kiwi as a rotation DE and sometimes lining up LB.
2) He needs to get stronger at the POA & with a f/t NFL strength coach he should.
3)He's young & 270 with room to add more weight.
4)Everyone describes him as having a blur for a 1st step & an 81" wing span that aren't going away.
5) His playing style is described as relentless. He needs work on his pass rush moves & again with NFL coaching he will get better.
This is a pick with a ton of upside that makes perfect sense, with considerations to Kiwi/Osi, importance in our scheme, & a premium position to boot.
The rest of you knuckleheads can shut-up now...MmmmK?
Vertical: 30.5", Short Shuttle: 4.67, SRAM: 0.44, Missed Games: 26
Projection: 3.8 Sacks through Year 5
This projection is not a misprint. Although Pierre-Paul is widely regarded as one of the top edge rushers by draftniks, it is hard to conceive of a prospect that SackSEER would like less.
Is it fair to say that Pierre-Paul 26 missed games because he spent his first two years in junior college? Yes, because the few recent edge rusher prospects with junior college experience were among the worst defensive draft picks in recent memory. The illustrious list includes Anton Palepoi, Jerome McDougle, Tony Bryant, Lamar King, Erik Flowers, Michael Boireau and most recently, David Veikune, Cleveland's 2009 second-round pick, who did not record a sack as a rookie and was inactive for much of the season. Unless you count Julian Peterson, a 4-3 linebacker who doesn't fit this study, you have to go back to Leonard Little in 1998 to find a former junior college player who panned out in the NFL, and Little spent only one year at junior college. When Tony Bryant is your upside, you're in trouble.
So why do junior college edge rushers struggle so mightily when transitioning to the NFL? Most edge rusher prospects who play at the junior college level miss two years worth of their NCAA eligibility, and they are understandably "raw" when they enter the professional ranks. Although many coaches believe that such a player can be "coached up," the coaching staff can only devote so much of its valuable coaching resources to a single player. Moreover, many players who go to a junior college have significant or severe academic issues, and expecting them to digest a complicated NFL playbook while also "catching up" on their fundamentals may be unrealistic.
However, even if we removed the missed games adjustment, Pierre-Paul would still have the worst projection in this class. Although Pierre-Paul's "handflips" video has earned him the distinction as the 2010 NFL Draft's consummate physical "freak," he put up poor numbers in all of the workout metrics that matter to SackSEER. This is certainly not the first time that similar "gimmicky" athleticism has not translated into workout numbers. For instance, just last year, San Diego State defensive lineman Jarron Gilbert made waves (pardon the pun) with a widely circulated video depicting Gilbert jumping out of a swimming pool flat footed. Despite his aquatic jumping ability, Gilbert only registered a 35.5-inch vertical leap at the Combine.
The ability of Pierre-Paul to translate his particular brand of athleticism to pass rushing success is speculative at best. Overall, the general manager who pulls the trigger on Pierre-Paul better be very confident that he has something special -- so special that it will completely buck the historical trends.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/nfl-draft/2010/introducing-sackseer - ( New Window )
And it is certainly common knowledge that arm length has a lot to do with reps/weight in that regard.
No coincidence that BBI man-crush, a guy known to have very short arms, put up 30+ reps.
scott up in albany?
Or Jerry the guy who led the drafts that led to our most recent SB?
fuck this is a tough one...
At 15, even if we traded up for Earl Thomas, got Dan Williams, Buluga, Iupati, Wilson, and many others, I really don't think they would be starting game one...
So get JPP, who can come in his first year and just be a pass rushing specialist can really help our team out.
You, sit there on your computer, make some evaluations based on some highlights and scouting reports.
Jerry, was a scout in the org for years. In 2002, he took over control of heading the draft. From that time, he drafted players and helped build a team that went on to beat one of the greatest teams of all time in the SB to complete on e of the greatest championship runs in this team's history.
And we're gonna trust you over him??
LMFAO
i think a big part of why I'm so disappointed is because this pick means Kiwi's a bust and Osi is gone. I was hoping to go forward with those guys. And yes possibly re-sign one or both. Now we get to go into the season with two lame duck DEs. Not very inspirational.
best to just move on
SteveMD
This is not verbatim but that is exactly what the tone and content of your posts contained.
So the Giants were supposed to reach for a second round-level talent, rather than go BPA? Oh.
Btw, a lot of mocks have Lee available when the Giants pick in the second round. Maybe theygo that route. To me, an ideal sequence, if the talent is there, would be ILB, DT and then OL or RB.
I assume you mean MIKE?
I'm still thinking maybe Lee in round two.
Apparently, Jerry is very confident.
The same idea as "I'll teach you how to make millions in real estate!"
Reeses Pieces and his Scouting Staff have a pretty distinguished reputation on being successful in evaluating players talent, and as to how that individual will fit into our Giants future. Yes, there are risk involved when selecting draftees, and yes, not every player selected will not be a favorite of the fans, but, you can be assured that the selected player was analized, researched, and investigated theroughly before the Giants made their selection and or selections.
Most importantly, we just have to realize and understand that we are merely Giant's Fans, and by being a fan, we should be able to entrust our Giant's destiny to the Giants Organization, and not to trust or be swayed by some opiniated, loud mouth quoting some after the facts, negative comments, by biased groups of individuals who post here on BBI or on other related sites. A ounce of loyality is always worth more that a pound of cleverness or deciet.
A critic is a critic, and a loud mouthed opinated and negative poster lambasting and forcing his presesence on others, is exactly what he is, and people sounding off, are what that are, and it is ok to disagree, you believe in what you believe, and we can believe in what we believe, and that should be all there is to it.
The Giant's selected JPP, lets see what the Kid can do, with his up-side we should see some exciting football coming from him and our defensive unit in the near future.
This is 100% true, that's why you'll see a lot of OT prospects with relatively low rep #s.
Still, what concerns me most is the Giants made a pick with only about 3 1/2 hours of legit game tape to watch. I don't care what anyone in the Giants organization says, the decision had to be made mostly on measurables more than legit D1 competition, because there just isn't enough legit D1 competition.
I mean, the Jets are a team that makes picks based on measurables... and we see how those picks often blow up in their faces.
First, you have no idea the extent of research that went into the pick. None. For you to somehow claim 'the decision had to be made mostly on measurables' is simply asinine as you have zero clue what they talked about.
And somehow, I'm guessing the Revis and Sanchez picks had little to do with measurables.
I was hoping for a LB but McClain was gone and Spoon was too big a reach there, so it's not a bad pick.
I do worry about what GiantsLaw said a few posts ago though...about going into the season with two lameduck DEs (Kiwi and Osi...one or likely both gone after the year).
I hate this pick, we needed an immediate impact player on the defense and we took the biggest boom or bust player in the draft. LMAO at Eric's "KWALL will love it, and KWALL knows his shit". KWALL loves big guys who run fast, combine freaks, he'd make a phenomenal GM of the Raiders. KWALL definitely knows some football, but his seal of approval on this pick doesn't mean a thing.
So since I am asinine, maybe you can help me out: apart from the 7 games, what exactly did the Giants base their decision on?
I'm gonna say....no. Read his statements on how the Giants select players. Look at the # of scouts on the roster, understand that they dissected every aspect of his game.
Buying into the hype is what fans do.
I'm changin' my mind, Reese be damned, we shoulda taken Colt McCoy.
I just went over to the Tampa Bay website to check out Robert Nuun's Bio to see if he's developed any long, lean DE's....guys like Michael Bennett, Kyle Moore, or even Tim Crowder.
Did Nunn help our very own Maurice Evans last year...inconclusive at this time.
I think that's asinine.
And you said the jets make their picks based on measurables, and then apparently just admitted that to be false, no?
So...
Though I don't disagree with the KWALL stuff, that sure as hell ain't why I'm on board with the pick.
And the logic behind that post is completely asinine.
I couldn't care less with who agrees with me...the KWALL seal of approval being good enough is hysterical to me...I can tell you who KWALL likes before he does. Not sure if it's been mentioned here, but revisit KWALL's take on Vernon Gholston, he sure is awesome.
JPP is as much of a risl as any draft pick is- you just don't know.
Swann as a DT who did not play college football because he was academically ineligible. Instead of trying to get his grades up or attempt a JUCO type of climb, he decided to join a semi-pro league, where his immense physical skill and size made him unblockable. He was also a physical freak and powerful and scouts wondered about him and people were turned off by his lack of experience. But he was raw and had natural ability which could not be coached. The Cardinals took their shot at him and made him the 6th overall pick. Within a couple of years, he was in the Pro Bowl.
That lead's me to Ferarra. Bless his heart, Ferarra was a fiesty DE, motor constantly running, 10000% effort guy. But simply not that skilled. He was coachable, played hard. But at the end of the day, this is a league for people who have rare talent. And while we all root for the underdog, lunch pail guy who is "just like us", when they needed production on the field, we saw Ferarra playing patty cake with the Niners offensive line as the Giants called on him to help rush the passer in that playoff debacle in 2002.
You give coaches guys with ability like JPP and look for them to explode when the light goes on. You want to go for that Eric Swann type because the ceiling and impact is so much greater. With the Giants DE depth right now, JPP can be used in 2010 to come in on passing downs and told simply "go get the QB". The Giants can coach him up to be an every down player as the season moves along. Let him learn from the vets and be ready to turn into a dominant force. That's why you go for the rare skillset player, even when they are inexperienced.
And again, totally agree with the kwall point
Sorry, but unless you are in a position to trump their evaluations with your own, I'll go with the professional's opinions.
It isn't the Giants way, those are not high priority positions to the Giants. Guards rarely go top 15, and you don't spend that high of a pick on a DT who can't rush the passer.
Once Spiller and McClain came off the board, it was pretty obvious they were either going to trade down or take a DE.
I'm not trying to bash KWALL, he's a good dude and not a total idiot, but the fact that the guy writes like he's Mel Kiper III and quotes measurables until he's out of breath in no way makes him a draft expert. He's a fan and watches no more football than the majority of this board.
The Jets also have well compensated decision makers that saw fit to take Vernon Gholston in the top 10 when he screamed bust. The Giants have well paid decision makers who saw fit to take such luminaries as William Joseph and a RB who had a guy bigger than ScottnMorgantown, just because the guys in charge think it is the right move doesn't mean a) that it is or b) that I have to agree.
And yea, not to badmouth kwall, not the point. But the priority placed on measurables for him is wayyyy too much for me.
2. High bust rate or "low floor" - According to Reese, "only the guys on TV say that...you don't hear scouts saying it". I think he may be the best player in the draft. Maybe he'll never get there and full develop his game. At the very least he's going to give us an extremely explosive edge rusher. There is a lot of value to that in the NFL. At worst, he's a situational pass rusher chipping in 6-10 sacks a year. Think of Mark Anderson as a rookie with the Bears(12 sacks in part time duty). JPP is better than ANderson.
3. "I still don't understand this pick" or "why another DE" - He was ranked #6 on the Giants board and that is probably underrating JPP. We are sitting at 15 and the #6 player is there at the 2nd most important position for a football team! And we have a bunch of "we don't need another DE" posts. Kiwi has been very avg. Kiwi and Osi may be out the door very soon. Not only do we need one we probably upgraded with JPP.
4. "It's a measurbales pick" - Wrong! The actual measurables were not spectacular. This is a guy who "does things I've never seen before on a field"(Ross) and he impressed the Giants scouting dept in every game he played. It's about the rare burst and movement on the field in pads and not the numbers at the workouts.
And finally, this guy would have went back to South Florida and put up 12+ sacks and he would have been a top 5 pick next year. Maybe #1 overall. WHat is that? A $50 million deal? We just got him at #15 and that adds up to 5 years and $18 million!!!
He will help the team.
He will help them immediately.
You will see JPP abusing NFL QBS soon. I'm thrilled PHI traded up and picked the wrong DE. We got the better player!
Great start to the 2010 draft.
Up next? A DT or LB with speed.
And maybe a WR to piss of the "we don't need another ___" crowd! How about WR Benn from Illinois in rd 2?
Really, in the midst of the whole 1st round, I'm just glad we didn't take SPOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
JPP measurables were disappointing. I expected better. But it doesn't change the stuff he did on the field and my believe it will really work in the NFL.
If we took Williams, you would've started a thread calling everybody who disagreed with the pick a moron.
Fuck fuck fuck. First Giants first rounder I've hated in years.
Strahan - Kiwi - Tuck - Osi
We will find a way to get all 4 on the field at the same time. If Alford comes back from injury and picks up where he left off last preseason (a big question) then we have 5 guys who can rotate in throughout that package.
bottomline - we are back to the same depth we had at DE the year we won the SB. No more, no less. Solidify the LB corps and the DT position and we are back to being a QB's worst nightmare to play against. Not to mention the additional athleticism we now have in the secondary.
And what is this nonsense about JPP not being a measurables guy? He's 6-5 270 with condor arms, huge hands and ran a 4.67...he's the definition of a measurables guy.
Link - ( New Window )
But the Giants front office disgrees. You're the guy quoting the Kipers now. According to Reese it's the TV guys who say that and not the Giants scouts.
It's ridiculous really. He's either a HOF or bum? He can't be a situational edge rusher giving a team 6-10 sacks a year?
Why? Does he have physical limitations that will prevent it? No he doesn't.
The boom or bust comments come from guys who say "he only played 1 season" and this "is a measurables pick". It doesn't come from guys who can see the immediate impact this speed rusher can give to a team. And why his unique skills actually give him a high floor.
2. Derrick Morgan
3. Dez Bryant
I'd be glad to discuss it as I literally have zero problem with you, haven't since early last season, and hadn't planned to do so since.
ok then
The NFL is full of guys with speed and measurables who dominate the league. THis is why they keep drafting them.
It's really weak to bring up 1 or two measurable guys. You think it makes a point against them? It doesn't.
You can find high production, high intangible, and high everything else guys and find plenty of failures. A lot goes into their success in the NFL. But what we have seen is one thing to reducde the failure rate is to draft explosive athletes.
And JPP Measurables? Very good. The vertical and shuttles were not spectacular. Morgan beat him in most categories. He's compared to Kearse but Kearse had much better measurables. A lot of guys have better measurables entering the NFL. A lot of guys don't cause problems for blockers like this player.
They drafted him because he impressed on the field in evert game. "Jumped out at them".
#2) I saw a lot of highlights of JPP and the one thing I like his how flexible he is. This is a big difference between he and Osi. Osi is not a great leverage, lean (angle not body style) guy (Think LT when he would rush around the corner and give his shoulder the OT while leaning and dipping low until he was around the OT and going after the QB. Osi just tries to sprint deep into the backfield and around the OT.
JPP looks like a guy who can lean in more and cut his angle to the QB down from the Osi "I am on a site seeing detour to the QB" path we have seen the last two years.
The only pick I would have liked better was Iupati. But I'll take JPP happily. The philosophy is sound.
You can whine all day about 6.5 sacks. When he was on the field he impressed. Of course, what do the Giants know. Some guy in Fl certainly knows more about what JPP did on the field in 09. Isn't that right?
For fucks sake.
Good luck tonight Jerry!
I didn't find JR's answer to the question: "If you had him #6 [overall], why did you use almost all of your time?"
Ans: [not verbatim] "Well, we were waiting to see if some other things might happen, then we were talking to JPP on the phone."
I'm not sold.
Compare: look especially at the 3-cone and short shuttle, re. quickness. 40-yard dash about the same with both.
Morgan:
Height: 6’3” Weight: 266 pounds
Hand Size: 9 3/4" Arm Length: 34 1/2"
Combine Workout: 4.77 40 yard dash (1.60 10 yard dash), 34” vertical leap, 9’4” broad jump, 7.12 3-cone, 4.43 short shuttle
Pro Day Workout: 21 bench press reps of 225 pounds, stood on the rest of
JPP:
Height: 6’4 3/4" Weight: 266 pounds
Hand Size: 10 3/8” Arm Length: 34 3/4"
Combine Workout: 4.71 40 yard dash (1.65 10 yard dash), 19 bench press reps of 225 pounds, 30.5” vertical leap, 9’7” broad jump, 7.18 3-cone, 4.67 short shuttle
Pro Day Workout: 31.5” vertical leap, 9’9” broad jump, stood on the rest of
Graham:
Height: 6’1 3/8” Weight: 268 pounds
Hand Size: 9 7/8” Arm Length: 32 1/4"
Combine Workout: 4.71 40 yard dash (1.61 10 yard dash), 31 bench press reps of 225 pounds, strained his left hamstring and skipped the rest of the workout
Pro Day Workout: 31.5” vertical leap, 9’3” broad jump, 7.01 3-cone, 4.25 short shuttle
But the boom or bust talk as well as "this is a measurables pick" is ridiculous. The pros from the Giants explained why you're wrong.
But carry on...
Only 6.5 sacks...only 1 year...we don't need a DE...now go
That's why you love him. The fucking end.
when Williams fell to us I was ecstatic , then we picked #90 and I was like WTF?
then it hit me.... Fewell will run the 5 Aces Package
JPP,Tuck,Canty,Osi, Kiwi
it could be awesome
A: You take that into consideration, but he played well in a big league this past season. We think the guy has the biggest upside out of any player in the draft. Any player in the draft. That’s how we really feel about this guy.
And then this:
A: The length, number one. He’s 6′4″, 270 lbs. The speed that he has and the long arms he possesses, the athletic ability that he has. Those kinds of things just come naturally raw, oozing with talent and the motor that he has. All those kind of things he has, you know, it’s hard to find a package like that. He has some freakish athletic skills that we’re excited about trying to hone and get him on a good path toward workouts.
.....
Q: Do you think he’s similar to Jevon Kearse coming out?
A: Length-wise, he’s built similar to Jevon Kearse so yeah that’s a good comparison. The body type he has that’s kind of stringy looking. You rarely see guys with that kind of length and that type of body type. He does have a body type like Kearse, yeah.
Also, Marc Ross does talk about his college games, but makes it pretty clear that they started watching JPP just this past season:
To me it's really simple, either the staff based the pick primarily on 7 games of D1 football, or they based it primarily or equally on something else. And Reese's comments to me make it seem like they based their decision mostly on stuff apart from actual gameplay. That's what I meant by "measurables".
So, look, all things being equal, I am always for drafting the more athletic guy over the "intangibles guy" but college production is always the most important thing, IMO. And here there is an extremely small sample size, so small that I am concerned. I'm not saying it was a bad pick, but one that I am worried about. (That and I think Morgan is a better prospect. But whatever, they didn't pick Morgan, so I'll move on from that.)
And yes, some of the nitwits here do not bring out the best in me and I apologize for that.
Just have to see how the rest of the selection go.
A: Well, if you just base it off of when he played, it is very easy to grade the guy because he tremendous. And then you go, and just like any player that is my job – to scout these guys and dig deep and find out whatever --- all players have strengths and weaknesses, red flags. It is our job to dig deep and feel comfortable with those and research them so that we know they are a good fit for us.
A: Well, I have probably seen every game he has played this year. Our scouts, the way I have them do it, we have three scouts that do that area, they break down different parts of the season and do it. Of course the coaches get involved. Every game – Florida State – he jumps out on tape every game he played.
A: Of course you would like all guys to be fifth-year seniors or four-year starters and producers and all of that kind of stuff. But that is why you do the research. That is why we have the scouts and these guys that take a lot of pride in their job to make sure we get this thing right. And I take a lot of pride in what I do. And I wanted to make sure that we were totally comfortable with this guy.
A: If he was a bad player and we were just basing it on potential, then you don’t make the pick. But this guy is a very, very good player; tremendous player, an impact player who we still see with tons of upside, probably the most upside in the draft. But it is not like we are saying, “Man, we are hoping.” We see it. The guy does tremendous things on the field. And he is a good player that we are hoping still gets a lot better.
But remember, BBB lives in Florida, so he's got that going for him.
And if William Joseph left after his junior year he was going top 5...
bois - after getting toasted so thoroughly in the Roethlisberger discussion yesterday...you may want to take a break from engaging me.
So let's stop with the 7 crap.
The reason he reported to the team so late in fall practice was that he was finishing up an online class to get academically eligible.
Can you imagine what this guy would have been like with 3-4 years in a college weight program like Kindle, Graham, and Morgan?
Athletically I think it's safe to say his 'measurables' will probably improve when he gets into a first class weight program. I dont think Canyons CC has a reputation for pumping out combine warriors but I could be wrong.
JPP - 4 solo tackles, 4 total tackles, 1 sack, 3 tackles for loss, 1 FF
USF upsets FSU 17-7
exactly 32 days after stepping foot on campus
Interesting. Good game, don't get me wrong, but dominating?
This is Reese, Coughlin and the staff being smart, experienced and true to what wins championships in this era of pass-first football - athletic and relentless pass rush.
It's also an extremely shrewd and sound move to protect and anticipate any talent loss if/when Osi leaves. Most important - they improved the speed and athleticism of the defense big time with this move.
He has somne risk, but who doesn't? I think when you look at first rd, you go for homeruns when you get a chance and this guy is just that..
Can you really not see how insane that is? This guy literally came out of nowhere for them.
Again, there is an endless list of 5 star recruits who go to major D1 programs and have 3-4 years with top shelf strength trainers and coaches who can't do what this guy did in 32 days.
Go read the thread on the last good Juco pass rusher in the NFL. Hint: It was a long time ago.
I have no doubt he would have put up double digit sacks in college.
NFL still places a high value on pass rushing DEs with NFL bodies.
It's pretty easy to come to that conclusion. Try to keep up.
Let me ask you, do you see an upside here? Or from watching him play, you think he'll likely bust?
Jesus Christ...
Boy I feel better. I hope all you doomsters feel better now that you vented!
However, after 2 games he was the focus. It sure wasn't Selvie.
From what I saw in actual games...he's got a long way to go before he does that and the history of this league is full of unrefined athletic freaks who never did a thing in the league.
I'd have been much more comfortable with Morgan, who when I watched play actually resembled a player ready to be an NFL DE for a long time.
You and i know he is a classic boom or bust type player. We both hope it is boom.
I love you KWALL, no homo.
Bradford, Suh, Mccoy, Okung, Berry
I think it is fair to presume those guys would have been ahead of JPP on the board. I say this because Reese made it clear that its all about BPA and positions dont matter to the board. I dont think we would have taken Bradford, but it seems logical he would be on the board. Even if you take him off, your talking Trent Williams, Spiller, Mcclain, Haden, Graham as other possibilities.
Am I crazy? I dont see how JPP is 6 on a BPA board unless we were going to shock the world and pass on one of these elite high end players. That thought is scary.
We were trying to trade down but couldn't...nobody can tell me otherwise.
What's the problem with that?
I'm fucking sold.
He produced immediately. I would say it took about 1/2 of a football game to make him the focus in pass protection.
Selvie is a cupcake.
JPP was just the opposite. A rocket off the line and he got immediate pressure.
Let's put this to bed now: HE DID PRODUCE LAST YEAR. A lot of QB pressure and he did it vs NFL caliber OL.
So you may question if he could produce on the college level. That's fine. I don't question it from what I've seen.
vs WV (At least one)
and CIN (another one)
and 3 TFL isn't impressive? And he had more pressure on top of it.
KWALL and I have a history there...I said no way Derrek Lee would ever hit 40 HR's and low and behold he did it. I got one back on him but for the life of me I can't remember what it was.
A lot of people are assuming that we had offers to trade down, but maybe when Earl Thomas came off the board the pick before us, they vanished. Who knows.
What we know is this. The Giants had him ranked the best of the players that were left. They used the clock to explore a trade down but didn't feel they would get proper value in return.
I really don't understand what some of you guys expected to happen with McClain, Spiller, Thomas, etc... of the board.
Berry, Suh, McCoy, Okung
Based on the reports I think it's safe to assume Spiller was there also.
I think it's easy to assume that Davis + Williams might not have been there due to character downgrades.
The Giants were rumored to be split on McClain.
That basically leaves Joe Haden and Sam Bradford. Based on the Giants valuation of DE's over CB's I think that's not a leap. Considering we have Eli its plausible to assume that Bradford was not even on our board. We can say "what if" all day if he had fallen, but quite simply it never happens when there is a bonafide #1 overall QB.
He was 6th on our board because Jerry Reese said so. Sure he was.
Kenny Phillips - should been doing cartwheels he was there at 32 (didn't run the card up)
Same story for Nicks.
If the giants passed up on Trent Williams for JPP I would have been irate. However, it is possible that they did not have him in their top 6.
Bradford absolutely has to be on your board. You dont have to take him, but when your adamant position doesnt factor in, its crazy to me he would not be on your board.
I mean, you spend months and months preparing your draft board, you get to your pick, look at the board, and you take somebody that's not the BPA? Seems illogical to me.
You make the pick.
There really isn't much more to it than that
Just because a guy is the top rated guy on our board doesn't mean he's a good pick. It could mean simply we did a poor job of making our board.
There is no sure thing in the NFL draft, period. So you do your due dilligence, and hope you get it right.
Still glad he's our GM, but his shine has worn off some in my eyes.
I will also scream my head off for him in September 2010 and hope I am very wrong about him.
HOWEVER, as Britt says... this is why teams have draft boards. They evaluate and rate players and trust in their ability to do so. Reese took the best player on his board. He obviously differs greatly in opinion with those who say the guy is not going to be as good as Morgan or Graham or a litany of other 1st-rounders. And that's pretty much that.
It is hard to find a logical board that has JPP 6th without passing on a player who I think everyone would have been ecstatic about.
The important premise to my argument, however, relies on the fact that board is created irrespective of position. As I have said above, if that is the case, there is an interesting numbers game.
Bradford, Suh, Mccoy, Trent Williams, Okung, Berry, Haden, Mclain, Spiller, JPP
I dont think it is easy to create a top 6 above with JPP as #6 without putting a guy below him that seems questionable. This is particularly the case given that it seems Spiller was a definite part of the top 6 (above JPP).
Try it, it is not easy.
And Gerald McCoy, not Colt...and he's absolutely a better prospect than Jason Pierre-Paul.
Hopefully Reese and the scouting dept's opinion on this one is right.
It isn't about tackles/sacks all of the time. He's a guy who consistently beat his man. And he had a game that will work in the NFL. I'm finished on this subject for now.
On to round 2. Give me a name. Who don't you like? That guy goes to the top of my list today!
...but I really like being right too.
But he's really slow, so I think you're on board with me on that one.
I can out run him. That isn't a good thing for an NFL LB in 2010.
If they go LB in round 2 he's going to be a top notch athlete AND football player.
There are multiple lists that he could have taken that number from.
Just not a gamble I wanted to take with the 15th pick in the draft since I don't anticipate picking this highly again for a while.
They're better at this than we are.
It's been one of the most ridiculous things we heard on BBI during this draft season.
The questions are simple:
Why can't he just be solid?
Why can't he just be a productive edge rusher?
Why does it have to be HOF or bust?
And Reese, the guy you trust, commented on how ridiculous that comment really is.
There is obviously a middle ground that is possible, but compared to someone like Derrick Morgan, who absolutely looks like at worst a 7-8 year starting DE in the league...JPP's ceiling is probably higher but his floor is absolutely lower in my eyes.
Maybe he's just too slow to make it in the NFL, but it's tough to come to grips with that after watching him be such a good college player over 4 years.
Uh, no.
Bradford, Suh, Mccoy, Trent Williams, Berry, Okung, Spiller, Mcclain
For me, it is incomprehensible that they would have passed on Bradford, Suh, Mccoy, Berry, Okung.
If we work under the premise that spiller was ahead of JPP (which is the word), then we would have passed on one of those guys. If not, I think a great argument can be made that passing on Trent Williams or Spiller is crazy. Mcclain maybe too.
See what I mean. Its tough to figure out.
It is all based on potential. The giants believe with experience and coaching he will be a good player in the nfl.
As of now JPP is my guy-I'm rooting like hell for him AND pass rushers DO NOT grow on trees.If you see someone you think can change the tone of the game you go for it.Hopefully that's what they have in JPP.
The Giants have apparently determined he's coach-able so now he' going to get a crash course from the best coaches in the world.
And the difference between them seems to be one doesn't care about football and the other plays hard and loves it.
It's not like a team is going to use a top 10 pick on him.
My point is, they're better at this than I am. My opinion matters compared to yours, but not to Reese's or Ross'.
I agree my opinion does not matter relative to Reese/Ross. But I dont want to be taken for a fool as a fan either. If he is not 6th on the board, dont say he is 6. I would rather temper the enthusiasm with honesty. If he is 6th, it makes me nervous and I am expressing that nervousness
I know it's hard to believe, but sometimes really, really, really good college players are not good professional football players.
Osi Umenyiora was the same way and he worked out. It can work.
We needed help. Now. Don't think we got it.
We have 4 defensive ends now. Awesome. We still suck at linebacker and have 1 healthy safety that is starter quality.
I love a pass rush, I don't love continuing to throw premium resources at all costs toward it when there are glaring weaknesses in other areas that are ignored.
Kiwi is a really smart individual, JPP is not.
That was KILLING me remembering who he pwned me on and forgetting who I was correct about.
where does Iupati enter the mix? He is not among the names I gave you and clearly would not be in the top 6.
I agree my opinion does not matter relative to Reese/Ross. But I dont want to be taken for a fool as a fan either. If he is not 6th on the board, dont say he is 6. I would rather temper the enthusiasm with honesty. If he is 6th, it makes me nervous and I am expressing that nervousness
Iupati is one player I had ahead of JPP, that's where he entered the mix.
I don't know why you feel lied to, but I also don't completely understand why it is important.
If Reese says 6th, I believe 6th. Not only do I have no reason to believe otherwise, it's simply not important enough for me to care.
And I'll put you on your ass before you get your fahking zipper down champ.
He's a good player. Has an impacy in every game. Did not live up to the hype. Not a bust.
You're still rolling with the donut.
Learning the schemes for 2 defensive positions when you really don't know how to play one yet is not something he's going to grasp IMO.
They finally got and won the SB when they reduced his role and made him the 3rd down back he always has been.
He catches the ball well and returns kicks ok. Tony Mandarich ended up being a starter on the OL for years in the NFL, Robert Gallery will be a 10 year starter by the time he retires. They are both busts too.
I would ask if anyone saying we are playing him at ILB was serious.
If they redrafted the 2006 draft today Bush isn't a first round pick.
Worthy of #2 overall? Not even close. He's a 3rd down/pass catching back who runs back kicks. He's no more valuable to a team than Ahmad Bradshaw.
He's going to learn a decent amount about 6+ positions at least.
They will teach him multiple spots; he will practice multiple spots. It's TC's MO.. clear as day.
Sintim, Tuck, Kiwi...Dassit homie.
Sure is fast though, eh KWALL?
Q: Do you think you will use him the way you used Tuck in his first year, playing all four positions?
A: We like that. That's what we look for. We look for guys who have versatility and can play inside and outside. Guys who can play special teams. We target that kind of thing so we expect him to play all over the place.
Link - ( New Window )
I have a hard time picturing that guy at DT in anything other than a down/distance where the whole world knows the opponent will be throwing.
Agreed and it sounds like that's what the Giants are thinking as well.
OSI's Measurables......6'-3" 280; 40 Yard Dash 4.78; 26 Bench Press Reps....didn't start at DE until Junior Year. On the field OSI was more productive but at a lower level of football. Can JPP produce near OSI's level? These guys seem like very similar players.
It felt like a risky pick at 15, but if there's a chance he can produce like OSI maybe it was worth it. I think there were safer choices, but JPP had the most upside.
Bleacher Report - ( New Window )
I don't think he's as raw as people say. He needs to get a little stronger, but to me.. that is about it. He may seem raw because his body type is so unusual for the position
Speaking of which, Pierre-Paul did 23 backflips in full pads in 30 seconds. The cumulative weight in "cyclic loading" (their term) exceeded the entire weight of the New Orleans Saints. An interesting listen.
Link - ( New Window )
I did say people saying he's either boom or bust are clueless. Put me down for that one. I said that months ago. And the Giants GM said the scouts do not say that about the player. It's just stupid. No other word for it, But we heard it about 50 times in the past 24 hours on BBI.
I also disagree with the "it's a measurables pick" when the measurables were not spectacular. In fact 4-5 DEs put up better workouts at the combine and several more at the pro days. It was about what he did on the football field and NOT a draft pick based on a once in a decade workout. It was a good workout but I'd wager most scouts expected even better numbers from him. The reason the team likes him isn't because of a very avg 30" vert or 7.2 3 cone. It's because he's extremely difficult to block.
And the "No production" group is just as ridiculous as the boom/bust guys. They say "only 6.5 sacks" and I say they're fools. In every game the guy was a handful to block. They counter with tackle/sack numbers in games like WV. Did you watch that game? Did they guy quotines the tackle numbers watch these games? No! The Giants did and, more importantly they know how to watch a game. They say he was impressive in every game. And you can include the WV games because he was beating his man, getting in the backfield, and chasing the QB around. He was disruptive in that game. Just like he was in every game according to the scouts who watched every snap.
How in the fuck did he last to 15? Which was higher than most projected!
But the reaction around here was very strange. They got a very good prospect at a premium position. Mayock, Casserly, Lombardi? They all liked it. So did Reese and the Giants. Apparently they loved him at #6.
It's a great draft. Very deep at many positions. We also caught a break with SD, PHI, and the JAX picks.
Mayock had him in the 9-11 range.
Kiper had him in the top 15.
PFW in top 5.
TSN in the top 10.
Plenty had him rated high.
And the Giants had him at #6.
But some want to look at the stat sheet and say he did nothing.
And did I read about his arsenal of moves earlier in this thread? He tries to run around the tackle every single play. He looks like Osi year one. Osi was coached up and turned into a very good DE...would be much more comfortable taking that chance on a raw DE in round 2 and not with the 15th overall pick in a draft loaded with NFL talent with a couple reaches in front of us which left the board a little more open than expected.
10 yard split, 3 cone, SS, vertical, and bench were not in the top 10.
Broad jump was good at 9'7" but plenty of guys jump 10'+ at 265+lbs. You can find 10-15 guys who jumped better at 265lbs or more.
Oh, and someone on WVU should have bought him dinner first as much as he was held by them in these clips.
JPP youtube highlights/lowlights - ( New Window )
He's going to need to mix his game up if he is going to get to NFL QB's.
derp